David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

Quite!!!

 

Still waiting for your explanation for the same engine serial number in David's "0900" and 0858.

 

Ditto.

 

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/142312692-post45.html

 

With all the love for the 350 Can Am cars in this thread I'm just amazed that 0858 wasn't the first $100,0000,000 car at the RM Maranello auction. All this talk of desecrating an ORGINAL 350 Can Am is absolute rubbish!!! There has never been such a thing. The 350 Can Am cars, 0858 and 0860, were converted P4s. To have been ORIGINAL 350 Can Am cars they would have had to have been originally born or made as one, and not converted from a P4. 0858, even in 350 Can Am state, still largely remained P4 underneath. Only certain details were changed and the bulk of it remained P4. The DNA of the P4 cannot be taken away just by modifying the P4 engine and chassis, or its spec, and replacing body parts.

 

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/142312692-post45.html

 

Herding. You should run for office.

 

Yes have to agree and you know I hate non-period rebodies or replicars .

But if I found a very damaged/rusty GTA Alfa and restored it, I would be upset with anybody that said I was undoing it's originality because I was replacing parts to get the car as a car again.

The difference of course is that #0858 was in perfect condition before and did not need a restoration, just a refit. BUT the owner of #0858 probably thinks he/she is restoring this car to a period back in time. We see it as a replicating process because it did not need to happen ...
Pete

 

I love my classic Ferrari's and I also love to geek out BUT it has occurred to me reading a lot of this that we are a minute percentage of the worlds population (Those that are interested one way or another) and what with all of the other problems in the world this largely academic argument about what is after all four bits of rubber and a large bit of metal is possibly just going to get a little ridiculous. I guess I return to the point that if the owner wants to change the car, love or hate the result but lets keep the level of debate relative to the situation.

 

Seeing as the word "rubbish" is being used I would wager the above is in my opinion close to it, you seem to miss the point that the chassis of the Can Am is not the same as the P4, as others have mentioned the car was significantly changed to be a 350 Can Am, the engine was changed. How you using some objectivity and looking at facts, the simple fact is the 350 Can Am in no shape or form is a P4, when it was converted it ceased to be a P4, just about the only thing thats the same is the chassis number.

How could it remain P4 underneath when significant chassis modifications were made, the engine was different, how is the engine going to be corrected for it to be a P4?

DNA of a P4, here again that word rubbish may be quite apt. Bottom line here a car of which one remained has been altered back to something it never was the last time it left the Ferrari factory. How could a 350 Can Am not be original when it was built by Ferrari?

 

Bit of stupid thing to say on a specific thread about one of the most historic/stunnning/expensive cars ever constructed. This is not a 1750GTV with a 2000 Spider motor.

This debate is specific. I see no trolling.

FWIW I say that this car is not a replica. Historically it's murder. But is was a P4 once. There's not going to be 2 out there. I would probably do the same. But properly.

Whilst us dwebes discuss all and sundry some Russian is gonna come along and write out a cheque for lots and lots of millions and into a secure warehouse it will go.

I salute Jim for getting down and dirty. 1, he has the funds to acquire, maintain and run these beasts. 2, he's the real mccoy and clearly has bone fide passion.

 

If that's true there have never been 330 P3/4 and 412 P cars because they are converted P3s...

 

Wrong. 0850 and 0854 were originally 412Ps and not converted from P3s.

 

I didn't mention #0850 and #0854 specifically. #0844 and #0848 were converted to 412 P specs after the 1966 season. In 1966 the factory started with the construction of #0850 and #0854 as P3 cars but due to strikes in Northen Italy which also affected Ferrari they weren't able to finish the work on these cars. After the 1966 season they completed these two cars as 412 Ps to be used in the 1967 season...

 

Owner is not the end product user yet. This work is being done by a dealer in an attempt to make the car more valuable for resale. The jury is still out on that. This dealer has had this car for sale for a long time and the price he paid for it as a 350 Can Am plus what he's paying David, and his carrying cost for quite a while is it's new base price. He's asking more obviously but until it sells for more than that whether or not this makes sense economically is speculation.

 

I do think that 0858 re-converted to P4 has the potential to fetch considerably more than the CanAm version IF it got a perfect as can be replica body.

 

and that's why it's silly that the Cavallino Price guide lists value for P3's. There are no P3's
existent and none were ever sold. There is only one P4 existent today 0856. As an aside 0844 is a 330 Can Am with a replica 412 body. In that case the engine and gearbox are the same typo as 412P. In the case of 0858/0860 they're not. Some historians and many buyers rate cars by four things. Original chassis, Original engine, Original body, Original gearbox. Some cars have all four and some have combinations thereof. When a car is missing it's original engine the correct typo engine/gearbox has more value than an incorrect typo replacement.

 

Here's an interesting to ponder.

Lets say you took an original series II 250 GTO and fit a replica series I 250 GTO body would it become more valuable? (Many would say it would look better)

How about the original 250 GTO with it's original 330LMB body? (Many would say it would look better)

Why is this different?

How about "improving" the appearance of non covered headlight SWB California's with covered headlights?

 

The massive difference, the scale of which is immeasurable, is you would be changing them into what is perceived to be a more desirable configuration, but something they never were originally, but 0858 was originally.

 

Nope.

There are Series II GTO's that were originally Series I GTO's. Exact same thing as the case of 0858.

 

The above means you were talking about the 3 ORIGINAL Series 2 250 GTOs, and not the 4 rebodied Series 1 cars.

 

You keep missing the point, yes it was that originally but when it was converted to Can Am spec the car was changed significantly and ceased to be a P4, doing a conversion back today doesnt suddenly make it a P4 again.

Bottom line is the last time it left Ferrari it was a 350 Can Am.

 

No, it is you who keeps missing the point, as the car was NOT changed so significantly that it ceased to be a P4 underneath. Some details did change, some irreversible, but they are only details.

 

There is a contradiction in the above. "Not changed significantly" "Some details did change, some irreversible". I would think "irreversible" would constitute significant changes.

Yes and a change on the Mona Lisa, that would just be a mere detail and have no bearing at all.

 

+1

that is why the breadvan did not get the red classiche book but the white one instead.
Same goes for some 512S / Ms, which were heavily modified by the teams and most Michelotto and Drogo built cars.
0858 is a 350 Can Am and was a nice original car. What the owner is doing with it doesn't matter, its his car. But don't tell its a 330 P4. Maybe future owner converts it back into a Can Am....
Body is incorrect. What type alloy and what thickness? Rolled or Italian hammered?
Market will make a price when the car comes up for sale.
Probably a wealthy Russian or Chinese will buy it yes.