David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

True, and really because of the scarcity of these cars it will be worth whatever the person who wants it most and can afford it is willing to pay.

But do you think, if you put the most original P4 side by side with 0858, for sale, at the same time, that 0858 will fetch as much money? Will the difference be reasonable? I think it would be.

More importantly, though, there are no longer any 350 Can Am's in existence, but there is one other P4 that will never be original again. Like I said, that's the saddest bit, and what seems to be angering most here...

 

0858 will be eligible for attestation by Ferrari Classiche as a "vehicle of historical interest" in its P4 reconfiguration.

 

They tell you that based on Piper's work?

They told me if they did the work in Modena the proper way to their standards they would.

You know for a fact that they've accepted this work English wheel, thickness of this alloy and all?

 

Having a bit of experience here if you added back the headlights it once raced with as a Cam Am in SA it could be driven legally on the streets.

002 has no windshield and is fully road legal.

 

You think David's "0900" and this one having the same engine serial # will be an issue for them?

 

I've no idea. Could they be stamped in error and just be duplicate numbers? Are you implying that one of them is fake?

 

I agree with "Retired" that one of these N2 stampings was not made by Ferrari.
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So what is the issue? The actual stamping? The number itself or both? What is your explanation for your statement that there are 2 0900 numbers? Where is engine 0858?

 

Explanation?

What part of the photo of the engine stamp N2 on the engine and typo 247 (Can AM) currently in 0858 and the photo of the stamping in David's "0900" showing engine stamp N2 Typo 247 (Can Am) are you unable to understand?

 

So it's the N2 number that you have issue with? To be honest I do not know what the N2 number refers to. Is N2 the actual engine number?

 

The 247 stamping is the Typo of the engine (Can Am not P4 which is 237)

The N2 is the serial number of that Typo 247 engine. (Engine #2)

 

My apologies. The above is wrong. In P4 reconfiguration, 0858 will be eligible to be tested and scrutinised by Ferrari Classiche, and if it meets their specifications will be attested/certificated as a Vehicle of Historic Interest.

 

Thank you for that. A tipo 247 Can Am engine is just a tipo 237 P4 engine bored out from 4 litres to 4.2. As said previously, I have no idea why the 2 engines bear the number N2. Will not the engine in 0858 bear the number 0858 on it anywhere?

 

Look the same to me.

Not.
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To me that makes more sense, though I have a feeling whoever buys this will not have it go through Classiche scrutineeing. Just a hunch.

 

0858's original P4 engine would. It would also have Le Mans scrutinizing stamps on it's engine and gearbox. It would also be stamped Typo 237 N3. If that original engine were "Just" bored out those original stampings would still be on it.

Prior to the RM auction I inspected 0858's 350 Can Am's engine. I did not see any original P4 stampings I did see the same stampings that the Classiche document you posted shows. The Classiche document you show doesn't show any original P4 stampings either. The only engine stampings it shows are 350 Can Am typo stampings with the same 350 Can Am typo and engine serial number that David's "0900" shows.

 

Thank you. With reference to your answer, where is 0858's original engine? Also from your answer, the engine in 0858 does not have 0858 stamped on it? Could it have had any P4 stampings such as tipo 237 removed/erased and then stamped 247 N2 etc?

 

Not sure where it is or if it still exists.

I didn't see it nor is it on the Classiche documents you posted.

Anything is possible but as I've seen Ferrari engines with two different typo's and serial numbers on them I don't see why Ferrari would have done that. I also don't see anyone removing Le Mans scrutinizing stamps which I also couldn't find.

As an aside 0854's engine is stamped 0854 and it clearly has Le Mans scrutinizing stamps.

While 0846's block is not her original block it's heads are her original heads and they do have Le Mans scrutinizing stamps on them.

0854 has Le Mans scrutinizing stamps on both it's block, heads and gearbox.

Personally I remain troubled by the fact that 0858's engine and David's "0900" claim to have the exact same serial number engine.

350 Can Am 0858 was a fantastic car. I tried to buy it but it's reserve was more than I felt it was worth. I accept that many would rather see 0858 dressed as a P4. In this case I agree with Ferrari's view of what 0858 was and think their willingness to dress 0858 as a P4 and Classiche her as "A Ferrari of Historical Interest" reasonable. I still can't fathom not having Ferrari Classiche do this if this is what you wanted to do. They would have done it as correctly as possible and the guys they would have used to clothe 0858 as a P4 would have done it the correct way as it was done in the day using the bucks, molds and wireframes that were originally used. JC decided instead to go the David route and what will be will be.

 

OK. Now let's have a look at some more pictures.

Top pic is 330 P4 0856 tipo 237?

Middle pic is 0858 with tipo 247.

Bottom pic is 0900 with tipo 247.

Apart from the 4 coils? being in a different place on 0858 and the differing fuel injection induction trumpets what are the differences?
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Enough for Ferrari to classify them as a different typo.

Read the Technical Data sheets and all will be clear.

There's a clue to where you can find them in the 0846 thread but you have to really look hard.

 

Did Ferrari also give a different typo to the F1 engine of the period, or have we already proved they were different other than stroke?
Pete

 

Possibly 312 F1 engine tipos were 218, 242, 242C and 255C as the engines used in the 312 F1 cars developed through 2, 3 and 4 valves per cylinder head designs between 1966 and 1969????

Engine tipos of 330 P3 0844 and 0848 = 216 which changed to 241 when they were converted to 412P specification.

Engine tipo of 330 P3 0846 = 216 which changed to 237 when it was converted to 330 P3/4 spec and used the P4 engine.

Engine tipo of 412P 0850 and 0854 = 241.

Engine tipo of 330 P4 0856 = 237.

Engine tipos of 330 P4 0858 and 0860 = 237 which changed to 247 when they were converted to 350 P4 Can Am configuration.

 

They were very cleaver and did a lot of cool things. One was blocks that could run at different displacements without having to to bored out by changing the size of the crank journals to allow different length Rods. A clue to the work they did is in the HP/Torque curves that the different Typo's have at various revs and their red lines. We learned a lot about their techniques when we re awoke Dino Competizione from her 40 year sleep. I touch on some of it in that thread. The internal bracing and bearing retention techniques they used and changed was very trick for the time and evolved and changed a lot in the day as a result of their racing and note taking. The technical data sheet are very interesting and some found their way into period books but those books have become very rare and hard to find. Le Mans scrutinizing documents also tell you a lot about these cars but finding a set of those is difficult. At the time of the auction and Ferrari's revising the history of 0858 (I and others still think incorrectly) I showed classiche a set of 0856's and 0858's which proved that for them to be right they would have had to restamp 0856's and 0858's engines or swap them car to car. Look at 0856's engine stamps they look totally completely original to me. Retired has posted photos of restamped engines and the way they did it in the day was crude and left a mark.

 

Gearboxes used:

0844, 0846, 0848, 0850 and 0854 latterly had Ferrari gearboxes 603R installed which were changed from ZF 5DS or 593? on 0846.

0856, 0858 and 0860 had Ferrari 603R gearboxes installed when built.

The above means there were at least 8 603R gearboxes and all cars have or ended up with the 603R. The gearbox in 0858 is not specifically a 350 Can Am tipo. The 603R is in all of them so 0858 does not have an incorrect gearbox tipo in it as you have said for a P4, but a correct tipo 603R.
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Nope


593 changed to 603 P 3/4 0846
603 412P 0854
603R 350 Can Am 0858
603 and 603R are not the same box

The Can Am engines which began with the 350 were also investigated by Ferrari for Indy and became 612 and 712 typos.

The Can Am 603 R's were also used in later 512S and 512M.

Have a look at the stampings on the gearbox of "0900"