David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

You could make one from scratch for less so the question is how much is its compromised pedigree worth.

 

would if I could. take her back to her Team Gunston colors.

not to me.

don't care.

not interested in using it on the road. It is a comp. car.

 

The point I made is that you yourself have said in previous posts that I listed that the 412P cars and 0846 had 603R gearboxes.

Yes, let's. The engine in 0858 is tipo 247 which is a bored out to 4.2 litre tipo 237 330 4.0 litre P4 engine.

Yes it is. Christian Huet, a highly regarded Ferrari Historian, has stated that tipo 603R is the gearbox in a P4. Are you saying he is wrong? 603R gearboxes in 412P according to Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrari_P

The body may be being made on an English Wheel but the end result is what's important and as none of us have seen this yet it is not fair to criticise. What you have said regarding the thickness of the alloy is hearsay.

No, we cannot agree. 0858 as a P4 will be eligible to be tested/scrutinised by Ferrari Classiche as a Vehicle of Historic Interest. Red Book Certificates are only awarded to cars in the same specification as they last left the factory.

Your above post in the Classiche Replacement Block thread speaks volumes for how you perceive yourself v. Ferrari Classiche. You obviously thought you were better qualified than Classiche to restore 002. Mr Piper wouldn't stand a chance with you bearing in mind that he only has 50 years experience of owning, racing, maintaining, restoring and making replica chassis of the P cars.

Your agreement with Paul Baber's comments are evidence of your regard for Classiche. Why is it a problem for you when someone choses not to go the Classiche route, as you have not in the case of 002 and 0854?

Normally I would only recommend the use of Classiche to restore an important car, but that's narrow minded really and I do think Mr Piper was worthy of consideration too and his overseeing the project adds great value to it. Below is what I posted earlier in this thread.

I thought the asking price was higher to be honest. Only time will tell but given what other Ferraris have sold for, and that a P4 to many is the epitome of Ferrari, I think it offers excellent value for money.

 

Classiche would have done the same as what DP is doing, except they would have made/constructed things in the period-correct manner.

To me, it is not so much the debate who is doing the work (if done correctly), but the fact that it is done at all.

The outcome is, in whatever way you look at it, a bitsa. A bitsa with a lot of Ferrari-content, but most of it incorrect for what it tries to be.

As was said earlier, a correct replica could have been made for a lot less than the apparent price, and one has to wonder who would pay such a sum for a car which is now claiming most of its' fame from the fact that it shouldn't have been? Can you hear the whispering around you wherever you take it?

Best,

Jack.

 

What part of the original gearbox in 0854 is stamped 603 not 603R are you unable to understand?

What part of Ferrari has very clearly stated that 350 Can Am 0858 will not be able to be Classshed as a P4 don't you understand?

What part of this Piperised 350 Can Am has been on offer for a long time and has not sold despite you thinking that:

"the asking price (25MM USD) was higher to be honest. Only time will tell but given what other Ferraris have sold for, and that a P4 (WHICH FERRARI HAS VERY CLEARLY STATED THAT THIS CAR NO LONGER IS AND THAT IT CAN'T BE CLASSICHED AS A P4 BUT ONLY MAYBE IF WHEN PIPER IS DONE AND THEY INSPECT IT AS "A FERRARI OF HISTORICAL INTEREST") to many is the epitome of Ferrari, I think it offers excellent value for money."

 

That 0854, a 412P and not a P4, has a gearbox stamped 603 is not proof that tipo 603R is incorrect for a P4.

Your above statement is inaccurate and misleading as well as meaning that Classiche will not certify 0858 P4 at all whereas it is eligible to be examined for attestation as a Ferrari of Historical Interest. Fact.

How do you know what I'm thinking? I have not stated anywhere my views on the length of time 0858 has been for sale.

The above is a misquote of what I said (see below) and has a different meaning to what I actually said. Please do not misquote me in future.

 

Ah, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I for one thought it was gorgeous.
The only Can Am Ferrari that had a modicum of success was the '69 612.

 

With due respect I tend to enjoy your posts in this section, you often post many interesting items but this argument is more and more like you defending and trying to convince me and others we are "wrong", I am not more wrong than you are "right". This ceased being a debate a few pages back when you continually ignore valid points being made.

Do you agree this restoration should have been undertaken by Ferrari Classiche, do you think the market will look at this car differently because it wasnt done by Classiche, do you think the people to whom this car is aimed it would have preferred a Classiche restoration, do you know why the car wasnt sent to Classiche?

Lots of questions yes but the more I read your posts the more it seems like you have an affiliation with those doing the restoration work. Apologies in advance if this is incorrect but reading your posts its easy to get that impression.

 

It's quite funny to Me seeing all the controversy, emotion and upset that is generated by these car and their "originality", when back in the day, Enzo Ferrari himself would have happily butchered them all to adapt them for another race class/series, cannibalised them for parts for other cars or simply turned them into scrap metal!

I can't help feeling that were he alive today, he'd still get a laugh out of all the rich owners/collectors and the fuss they make about owning one of his cars!

 

Not my job to speak up for miurasv but I wholeheartly agree with him that one shouldnt make any judgements about the quality of the work until the finished car is presented and can be examined.....all this "noone but Classiche should be allowed to touch this car" talking is pointless at this moment. It may very well turn out that the work was botched from the start but all that talk now is based on hearsay and rumours.

 

nah, il Commendatore would be really, really p-ssed that these hyper-valuable cars of his aren't being driven; also he'd be intensely annoyed that other people rather than his Company would be raking in all this money.

 

OK lets see if and how Classiche does this. The reputation Classiche has right now is far from finite and subject to much interpritation.Frankily I think anyone seriously considering 0858 for what ever reason need not be to consirned what Classiche's opinion is. Spend your time with Glickemhous and Piper and the other P series owners. tongascrew

 

which from my understanding is what happened to these series of cars in particular.

One was allegedly thrown in the scrap heap and then rebuilt into one of Napolis cars.

This one was turned into a can am car.

Then there is the argument over originality... both of which aren't very original or perhaps a better way to put it... clearly original.

I guess if we are splitting hairs the real argument might be that the can am car is getting a P4 body that is not being made with the exact methods that the bodys were built with in period.

There are very few of these cars and are very rare. Some might say that the can am car is being put into P4 status to make it more valuable. which it may. But in my opinion whoever actually buys this car will do all of the research and full history will be well known. turning it into a P4 isn't going to be misleading anyone. It was once, it was changed... and now it is back (how accurately I dont know)
Bottom line nothing about the cars history will be swept under the rug.

Some might say that the fewer P4s in existence will raise the price of those that are.

 

Yes, I did miss your point which was made clearer in the second of your above two posts. My apologies.

 

From the answers received to my previous post (thanks guys) it would appear only two vehicles have Classiche Certification, 0856 as a P4 and 0858 as a 350 Can Am.

As such, does it really matter that 0858 might not / will not achieve the same status, as a P4?

Regarding value, with no certification available, does this not put it on a level playing field with the other six?

Also, regarding value, if it is sold for 25mill. usd, that`s got to be good news to other owners, hasn`t it?

Jong

 

I have little sympathy for anyone willing to part with $25m who doesn't know exactly what they are getting with this incorrect can am/P4.

If someone thinks its worth that when its complete, knowing full well what it used to be and what its now trying to be, then that's all that matters I suppose.

At least Piper and Co. have been open and honest about what they are doing. The only redeeming feature of this sad story IMO.

 

Originally Posted by Napolis

What part of Ferrari has very clearly stated that 350 Can Am 0858 will not be able to be Classshed as a P4 don't you understand?

miurasv

Your above statement is inaccurate and misleading as well as meaning that Classiche will not certify 0858 P4 at all whereas it is eligible to be examined for attestation as a Ferrari of Historical Interest. Fact.


Nope:

Ferrari has VERY CLEARLY PUBLICLY STATED THAT 350 Can AM 0858 IS NO LONGER A P4 and that it can NEVER be CLASSICHED AS A P4 and if a replica P4 body is fitted to it even by Ferrari Classiche it can only be Classiched as "Ferrari of Historical Interset" NOT A P4.


Your statement:


"Originally Posted by miurasv
0858 was Red Book Classiche certificated as a 350 Can Am car in 2009 and will be eligible to be tested/scrutinised by Classiche for certification as a Vehicle of Historic Interest as a P4."

Is totally not true as fitting a replica P4 body to a 350 Can Am will not make it a P4 as Ferrari has VERY clearly stated.

Your leaving out the word replica after P4 is extremely misleading as it clearly states that Ferrari might issue a Classiche: "certification as a Vehicle of Historic Interest as a P4."

Ferrari Classiche's Certification of the Breadvan as a Vehicle of Historical Interest in NO WAY certifies the Breadvan as currently being an original SWB and if Ferrari were to certify 350 Can Am 0858 fitted with a replica P4 body they made it very clear that they would NOT in any way certify 350 Can Am 0858 as currently being an Original P4.

That is fact.

 

^^^Ferrari Classiche have attested the "Breadvan" although it does not comply with the strict Ferrari Authenticity Certification criteria, has been deemed, as a result of its competition and/or international recognized show history, to be of historic interest. It wasn't submitted to be attested as an original SWB Paso Corto though they do state it originally was one. You are saying that Classiche will not attest 0858 in P4 configuration as they have attested the "Breadvan" as a Ferrari of Historical Interest? I have never said that Classiche would certify 0858 in P4 configuration as an Original P4, only that they would test it for certification as a Ferrari of Historical Interest.

See here: http://www.ferrari.com/English/GT_Sport%20Cars/GT/Pages/100409_cor_attestation_Breadvan.aspx

 

They should certify it as a historical disappointment when this process is over.

>8^)
ER

 

Yep, agree 100%

 

Nope:

You very clearly said:

"0858 was Red Book Classiche certificated as a 350 Can Am car in 2009 and will be eligible to be tested/scrutinised by Classiche for certification as a Vehicle of Historic Interest as a P4."

"as a P4" is NOT true as I have pointed out Ferrari has very clearly publicly stated that that they will not certify 0858 "as a P4". Ferrari will never consider 0858 to be "a P4" ever again. Period.

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/142321647-post567.html

 

Ditto.

 

I did not say that Ferrari will certify 0858 as a P4. I said that it will be eligible to be tested/scrutinised by Ferrari Classiche as a Vehicle of Historic Interest as a P4. However, I will be very happy to bow to your superior knowledge and concede that I am wrong, as could well be the case.

 

I'm amused by the reverence the Classiche process is held in by people.

It's nothing but a revenue raising "service" that Ferrari invented a few years ago to get involved in the restoration of older cars and as a method of extracting revenue from a market segment they were missing out on.

It has also instantly gave Ferrari the illusion of "credibility" in a market segment (historic restorations ) that they had never shown the slightest interest and had no experience in.

I think Ferrari were fortunate with the timing of the Classiche program, it coincided with a many "new" historic owners entering the market who, not knowing any better, have taken it as "gospel" and place way too much credibilty on the process or its accuracy.

At best, the Red Book Classiche process is compromised by things like new engines with restamped serial numbers and a predisposition to certify cars that have had remedial work carried out in their workshop.

But when the Red book process is so compromised, one must question if there is any value at all in the "certification as a Ferrari of Historical Interest" process. Saying that a car is eligible certification as a "Ferrari of Historical Interest " is really not saying much at all, in fact what is saying loud and clear is what it is NOT.

I'm also 100% certain that apart from the "P4 thing" that will emerge from Pipers workshop in the not too distant future, at some stage further in the future a 350 Can-Am will also emerge, also eligible for "certification as a Ferrari of Historical Interest" because it uses the original body and "spare" engines and a gearbox that have been mysteriously found.

The whole exercise is profit driven, destroys the originality of the 350 Can Am and will further muddy the history of these cars as time goes on.

Lastly, when it comes to debating the in's and out's of P4's , I (and I suspect most people) give a lot of credence to the opinion of someone who can actually go to their garage and look at and touch their P4.


M

 

Steve

You can not Classiche something "as a P4" (Your exact words) that no longer is a P4 but is a 350 Cam Am with a replica P4 body. Period.