David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

Any excuse to post this great video that I'm sure most have already seen. 0858 is car no. 6 and Mr Piper in 412P car no. 9 c/n 0854. It was actually Hugh Dibley racing Mr Piper's green 250 LM, car no. 55 c/n 8165, with Roy Pierpoint and not Pedro Rodriguez who was driving a Mirage.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMTXezcAJto[/ame]

 

Why wonder? ASK JC and Piper.

 

It says in the links below that it was actually 0860 that was car no. 6 and that came second at the 1967 BOAC 500 at Brands Hatch being driven by Stewart and Amon and that 0858 was driven by Jonathan Williams and Paul Hawkins, car no. 8 to come 6th. 0858 seems to have lost its tail in the race too. Jim Glickenhaus has the tail from 0858 that shows signs of a previous accident he believes occurred in the race.

http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/Brands_Hatch-1967-07-30.html

barchetta.cc re 0858: http://www.barchetta.cc/english/all.ferraris/detail/0858.330p4.htm

barchetta.cc re 0860: http://www.barchetta.cc/english/all.ferraris/detail/0860.330p4.htm

barchetta.cc re 0854: http://www.barchetta.cc/english/all.ferraris/detail/0854.412p.htm

 

True.

0858 was a 350 Can AM. Putting an incorrectly made (English Wheel) replica "P4" body on it and chopping off some of it's original 350 Can Am Chassis to fit that Replica body doesn't magically change the facts.

Ferrari was very clear that if someone did the above 0858 would no longer be eligible to be Classiche'd as an original Ferrari and Ferrari was not willing to "restore" 0858 as a P4 and call it an Original P4 PERIOD.

350 Can Am motors are not Typo P4 they have their own distinct typo.

This is like taking an original 250 Series II GTO, removing it's original body and putting an incorrect (English Wheel) Replica 250 Series I GTO on it in a silly attempt to pretend that it was somehow now an Original 250 Series I 250 GTO.

Pathetic and Sad.

This has NOTHING to do with what happens to Race Cars over time IN THE DAY.

Nothing.

 

Did they jump the shark?

 

It isn't really. It's like taking an original Series I GTO, that had a series II body put on it in period, and putting a replica series I body on it today.

I don't think this work devalues any of the P cars.

 

JC, DP and 0858's new owner have definitely jumped the Shark.

 

What is the Tipo No. for the 350 Can-Am motors?

 

Chassis modded to CanAm, possibly reversible.

Engine modded to CanAm, irreversible.

CanAm history outweighs the sharkskin it's in.

It's a CanAm.

^All arguable as Almost Anything Goes, with your host, Soupy Sales^



via rubber ducky

 

My 2 cents

MONEY TALKS

If I had the money I would probably turn it into a P4.................. Any hey it would be my car, my money and my rep....

 

I think in some ways the fact a rare Can Am is being turned back in a relatively less rare but more "market desireable" P4 is interesting. If it was me I would keep it as a Can Am, spray it Guston colours and enjoy it for what it is. Whats is going to interest me more than the final restoration are the articles which will be written about the car, they will be most interesting to see how the facts are presented.

 

This to me, is like a pentimento that has gone terribly wrong or a pentimento in reverse at the very least. It is much a akin to pealing away the top layer of paint down to the other work, because you have determined the previous work to be the more interesting piece, without taking into account the original artist's intent or the merits of history. If Michelangelo had decided to paint over certain sections of the Sistine chapel and then you came along and decided to peal away the top layer or repaint it to 'match' to get to the 'more beautiful' 'more important' 'more VALUABLE' work its much the same thing.

 

Now come on, Jim, you're a highly respected member of the Ferrari community and of this site but to use the words "Pathetic and Sad" in reference to this project is very harsh. For someone who has so famously commissioned the rebody of a Ferrari Enzo and a 430 Scuderia the following springs to mind, LOL: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_pot_calling_the_kettle_black

 

Even accepting this analogy, its important to remember that even masters like Michelangelo would commonly paint over earlier works. It didn't necessarily mean they thought the second layer was superior-in some instances it was simply to reuse a canvas or board as they didn't hold every study or work in such high regard as we do now.

The same could be said of Ferrari's old racecars. The modification of what was an original P4(no matter how much some current enthusiasts try to discount this fact) into a CanAm spec race car undoubtedly had nothing to do with whether or not Ferrari believed one design to be superior to another. They were just getting a bit more mileage out of the materials they had on hand. Decades later we attempt to attach reverent significance to one thing or another regarding these cars when the factory "in the day" really could have cared less.
Even though I thought the CanAm car was a neat piece and I probably would have restored it as such, I see no problem with those currently in possession of the car returning it to the form it originally left the factory in. Many of the principals have impeccable credentials-including racing and owning the P4s so it isn't some half hearted effort.
I'd even hazard a guess that if the right handshakes were initiated and the check large enough, Ferrari themselves would have re-bodied and certified the car.

 

The Ferrari Enzo and 430 Scuderia are examples of what is called "period rebodies", no harm no foul.

Taking an OLD body off a historic car is not right, but I will admit that the CanAm versions of these Ferraris sucked badly and never achieved anything, so by far the failure of the series.
Pete

 

Actually 0858 was quite successful in the hands of Paul Hawkins.

 

Mr Piper must have been thinking of the BOAC 500 at Brands in 1968, not 1967, when Pedro Rodriguez drove his 250 LM with Roy Pierpoint. Details in the link: http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/Brands_Hatch-1968-04-07.html

 

Did RM confuse 0858 with 0856 and 0860? http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/Le_Mans-1967-06-11.html

0856: http://www.barchetta.cc/english/all.ferraris/detail/0856.330p4.htm


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVKXFh0wqTY[/ame]

 

David Piper 52 years ago in New Zealand - what a great life. Has there been a book?
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I think I understated it.

Doing something in period such as converting a new Enzo into a coachbuilt Pininfarina bodied and engineered one off or taking a new F430 Scuderia and GT2 Spares and turing it into a one off Race car that will likely win an FIA World Championship is a LOT different than taking the last surviving 350 Can Am and 45 years later chopping off parts of it's original chassis and fitting it with an incorrectly made replica body to turn it into a replica P4. Ferrari has made it very clear that this replica P4 will not be a restored original P4 and for once I agree with them.

Lets follow the money. HL sold his 330 Can AM with a replica 412P body for a nice price to another European and funded JC's buying of a 350 Can Am which they then tried to sell for stupid money. When that didn't work they commissioned DP to chop down it's original chassis and fit it with an incorrectly made replica P4 body and they are now offering it for even more stupid money. Kewl.

If I have any of the above wrong I ask JC, HL and David to correct me.

 

Great post.

 

Hawkeye won the Springbok Series. I wonder what the opposition was? According to Wiki, Paul won 3 races and a Mirage M1-Ford won the other 2, thus serious opposition I guess. One can say that Paul was the most successful driver with 0858 with a massive 3 wins.

In Australia it was humbled constantly by the Matich. It only won one minor race. I'll quote you David McKay who owned 0858 before Hawkeye:

BTW: The parts discussed above became 0900 ...
Pete

 

If Ferrari were asked by the (right) owner to return 0858 to the P4 spec that is was, I think for the right price, they would. For the right price, I think they'd 'reverse' all aspects, including casting a new block, classiche stamped with the 'correct' number and give it a (kinda worthless imo) classiche cert.

Why wouldn't they? They've returned other cars to the spec of a specific race.

 

I think its a great shame that a really interesting (although unsuccessful) significant part of Ferrari's history is going to be lost in an attempt to sell the car as something that it no longer is, nor is in a state to be remade exactly as it was.

Any new buyer will be getting a Can Am engine, re-re-modified chassis and a body made incorrectly in England as previously stated.

If I were lucky enough to be in a position to buy it, it simply wouldn't sit right with me.

 

So by that do you mean the many other F cars restored in England over the years are also tainted? Work by DK, BH, Hoyle, and the many others?