David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

The Market is never wrong.......

 

I don't get it.

How can you restore something that doesn't exist? You can re-create it, not restore it.

I also don't get why all the integrity and respect have gone. We're discussing Piper's, but at the same time throw our own out the window.

This thread is full of very good and interesting information, and all participating who are not experts on the subject have learned a great deal from it, no doubt. The saga continues, and hopefully also the debate in this thread.

I, for me, can certainly do without having to read all the personal attacks and outlandish arguments.

It is what it is.

Best,

Jack.

 

It's very interesting if true, and I'm not saying that it is, that Christian Huet's Cavalleria book Ferrari P3/412 P states that 0846 ran "with the Barchetta P3/P4(0846) with the 350 P4 Type 247 power plant for Lorenzo Bandini" - at the April Practice Laps at Le Mans in 1967. Can anyone confirm?

 

These threads are interesting. All this arguing over minutia, which serial number is stamped where. These are minutia to try add value to a car which is usualy restored/recreated from bits. These minutia are a sign of just how arcane the old ferrari trade has become with all the $$$ floating about.

However in this case we have/had a fully intact historic piece unarguably as it last left the factory in period. So minutia here are used meerly to justifly the tearing it apart and add something else to create a bitsa with provenance.

Frankly a recreation with a a data plate as the $11 mill gt40 was is ridiculous to compare to an intact period kept car. A car largely rebuilt from bits has a value less than one never restored etc. If a recreation with data plate is acceptable, then so should a car completly new but period correct be, just the values are different.

Now tearing apart an intact period correct piece, I think that would be considered scariledge in any other field. There is a reason why buildingsd are landmarked even though the land is worth more with demolition. Therte is a reason why pretty much everyone decries chopping a 250 coupe to make a GTO even though the value is more.
Here we are chopping not a rusty hulk uneconomicaly restorable, nor a car of which there are others, here we are destroying as single survivor.

The answer to stopping all of this is acceptance of and sanctiong of period correct recreations. That way those that must have something from a period can, and can use them while the economic incentive to disenbowl period builds is removed.

What prevents this is snobbery and a false belif that recreations limits price growth of period pieces. All of which goes to show that most people in this hobby are interested in the $$$ and the cars themselvs how they go and the pleasure from use is secondary at best now. At this level its become a dig dick hobby and little more, the result is destruction of period pieces though everything from racing to restoration to rebody to you name it.

Since most buyers these days have little taste, not just in cars but art too, and since most purchases are based on badge and value this is the invitable result. If you doubt a santioned recreation can be acceptable, look at the auction price for the sanction 2 DB4 zagato. These things at this point are all about labeling. A Dutton T35 is accptable but apur sang not. The hypocarcy driven by $$$ is so thick you cant cut it with a knife.

Lastly I hope anything done to this can am car is reversable and the authetic pieces are kept, because one day someone will want to restore it back to its period correct shape.

Ferrari should be keeping their cars as intact as possible, santioning in any form what is happening here is allowing ti to happen.

 

Jim?

 

Also interesting is that the book referenced in my above post states "Therefore P4(0858), with simply revised engine and gearbox would leave for Belgium..." Could this have been where the "R" in the tipo 603R gearbox have been added? Ferrari Classiche has stated that the tipo 603R gearbox in 0858 was also used in the P4.

 

I doubt that's true. The P4 engine could be set up as either 3 or 4 liter by changing
crank journals and was run at The Ring and The Targa Florio as 3 liters as the laps were very long and 3 liters saved a fuel stop (Sparling).

 

This may be the most obtuse post I have ever read. My only reply is the game is never over. tongascrew

 

Yada yada yada..... PB's CanAm was returned to P4 cosmetics 40 years ago when money was certainly no reason. And he was one of the most respected persons in the Ferrari world. 0858 would have been brought back to P4 glory long ago too if it hadnt been stored in a shed for decades. Face it that outside this forum the CanAm version has very few fans. Probably because it was an unfortunate hack job in the first place. And quite ugly too.

 

E.F knew exactly what Piper was going to do with the entire supply of P3/P4 spares coming to him from S.F. and gave Piper his blessing.We also know what E.F.felt about the new FIA regs for 1968 which I have previously posted which explaines why the P cars were no longer of any importance to him. Eather they would go into the scrap heap or D.P.would keep the legacy alive and even gave Piper the 0900 s/ns to use for his reproductions. E.F. seemed to have no interest at the time in making a serious factory effort in Can Am for what remained of 1967 or 1968 and so the half hearted effort with 0858. E.F. gave Piper full rein of controle of the future of the P4 cars and that's what he is doing.As I have said previously if you don't agree don't blame D P. E.F. passed the ball to Piper and said run with it. Even now people at Scuderia Ferrari seem to know little or care what goes on with these cars. tongascrew

 

I have yet to find any evidence that Enzo gave Piper permission to cut up his factory produced cars for $$$.

You said yourself, the agreement was to race and maintain the P cars in his care, hence the spares. There appears to be NO mention of cutting up factory Can Ams.

 

So far Jim seems to rely on S.F/Classiche for accurate information.They seem to take on faith that the data in their files is accurate in the real world. David MacKay clearly states the sn of the car Aman shipped to him in Australia was 0858 P4.So far Jim has failed to say where Classiche came on the 603C 350 Can Am.Even if this number is in the S F files there is no indiction that it was on the car or on the doccuments that went to the USA, Australia or on to South Africa. Now logic would tell you that,like what had been done over and over before at S F, for carnet reasons s/ns were swapped and created to avoid new car import taxes.Of course neither Harrah, MacKay or Hawkins wanted to pay import duty on a new car with its 603C sn and so sn 603C doccuments never left Maranello. And 0858 P4 traveled the world as a Can Am modified P4#0858 This explains why the lawyers at the R M auction insisted any mention of the sn as 0858 P4 in the documentation be removed because according to the factory records 'only', the 603C sn was the sn of record. Now if anyone can show documentation that the car was ever known on record or otherwise prior to 2009 as 603C outside of Maranello please do so. Classiche could do everyone a big favor by stating that Jim's car is a restoration of 0846 and that 0603C is officially and originally 0858 P4. This also is difficult to ignore. tongascrew

 

Unlike your posts.

When will this end????

Respectfully,....just one man's opinion.

 

How do we know what EF told Piper?
Also at the time EF gave no crap about old race cars, hence no sharknose survives. Sensibilities are different today, hence a GTO cost 40 mill not 40 thou.

 

I can't help but feel that this thread has turned in to a recreation of the '0846 is it real is it not thread' with those who are queuing up to worship the ground upon which Jim walks upon versus those who read and conduct their own research and question everything (tongascrew, miurasvsv, P4replica.....remember him....)
Those who question everything and seek further information have a far better grasp of the whole situation here than those who just accept what is rammed down their throat and take Jim's word for gospel.
And with regards to the comment that if you don't own a Ferrari your comments are not worth anything...what a load of bollocks. There are many individuals out there without the wherewithal to purchase a Ferrari but have a far deeper knowledge of Ferrrari and their activities as they have collated a variety of sources, written, photographic and verbal but they are not given any credit because they don't have something red on their driveway.

These are of course just this mans opinion...

Paul

 

Ferrari's due dilligence in the matter of determining what their cars are officially defined as is incredibly important, more so than the potential buyers, exactly because it is in Ferrari's best interest to prevent the dilution of their product and trademarks. Regardless of whatever fiscal sidestepping was responsible for the misrepresentation of these cars in documents to secondhand owners back in the day, factory records are what matter in the case, for instance, of Ferrari possibly choosing to take legal action over some independent party purposefully misrepresenting a REPLICA as a real P4.

Honestly I'm not even sure if that is possible, or if they care, but that's why it's important that factory documents be properly updated.

Also, there is no s/n 603 C. As Jim stated, 0858 was never renumbered. 603C has to do with the other parts in the car which, along with the structural modifications carried out to Chassis 0858 make the car, officially and legally a 350 Can Am.

 

Since when? Oh, since the inception of Classiche....

Paul

 

Even if this is true, that doesn't make a factory Canam suddenly a P4 just because someone puts a body on it that is modelled to represent a body that was once on 0858. Well, for a couple of months during its lifetime of over 45 years that is.

Mind you, the shape is the ONLY aspect of this 2013-body that bears any reference to the 1967 body. And even that is not beyond critizism.

 

Was it ever published what Medlin paid for 0858 when he bought it back in 1969?
Also I read where he left it in Cluxton's shop for years and didn't pick it up. Maybe that brought people to the shop that could restore a P4 but some shops would get ornery and start charging a storage fee.

Not being an expert in Ferraris, I can give another example. The Mako Shark I Corvette is built atop the XP700 concept car, by GM. So does that mean that we as enthusiasts can't accept the Mako Shark I as an achievement in and of itself? Must GM or whoever shows it remove the fruits of the rebody and it shouldn't be accepted in any quality concours unless it is rebodied as it was born (and by the way, to go back before it was the XP700, it was an ordinary '58 Corvette so do we have to go back to that to maintain its purity? It seems to me that automakers themselves ought to be able to remake any car they made just as moviemakers sometimes re-cut the original film, adding left out footage. It's called the Director's Cut. It might not be the cut released but to them represents more their original intention.

 

That is their prerogative. Copyright laws are older than Classiche, though.

I'm not saying Ferrari would win a suit, but it makes sense for them to have a historical department and make money over the insane appreciation of their old products. And even if Classiche didn't exist, period Factory records - if they were well maintained - would still be the most credible documents about any Ferrari.

 

yes. In short:

Ferrari cutting up P4 0858 in 1967 to built 350 Canam 0858 is good
Talacrest cutting up 350 Canam in 2013 to built "P4" 0858 is bad

 

Even if Enzo did believe Piper to be the number one P4 guy back in the day (up for argument) it doesn't mean that he still is today.

And even if Enzo did and he still is it doesn't matter.

We are not dealing with a P4 here. The car is a 350 Can Am.

Piper is not the right man for the job. As the job is to keep it what it is, a 350 Can Am, not create a replica P4.

The right person for the job is the one who will keep it what it is. And that man is obviously not Piper.

 

The above is rosy eyed revisionist history. Since it has been stated in numerous posts, it seems appropriate to balance the inaccuracies.

David Piper
The continued deification of David Piper in this thread is bizarre. In actual point of fact his fingerprints are all over most of the problems within the P series.

Yes, DP was (and still is to a degree) a driver of Ferrari sports cars and other automobiles during the 1960's, certainly not one of the greats. He was not well thought of by Ferrari, by many in the racing community or by those with an interest in historic cars from the 1960's. He is tolerated by virtue of the fact that he has been around a long time, but during that time has earned the reputation as a bastardizer of cars. My perspective is that David Piper has always been and remains somewhat of a black sheep in the Ferrari community.

There was no bequeathing Piper rein of anything or giving his blessing relative to the P series by Ferrari. Ferrari simply sold obsolete race cars to various individuals (not Piper BTW, although many have passed through is hands after other owners). Enzo Ferrari entertained the request of Piper to build 1 car, 0900 (a serial number that was later assigned to the Chinetti Pb, likely as an effort by Ferrari to distance himself from the Piper creations). In typical DP fashion, he built 3 cars, which pissed Ferrari off tremendously. The fact that he did this allowed for the resurrection of 0846, (ironic, as it is my belief that as Piper was taking advantage of Ferrari, the chassis builder was taking advantage of Piper, likely charging to build three chassis and only building two from scratch, a item that Piper overlooked with all of is vast knowledge of these cars). In short, he is a 'garagista' building cars that suit his wallet or customer at the time. The problems with 0818 stem from Piper. The inaccurate reconstruction of 0824 is Piper. 0836 in its bastardized form is Piper. Now he is involved with the alteration of 0858. I will give him a pass on 8165 with replica GRP body, as it was done in period, however it is another example of how it was and remains about the car as a race car and a revenue stream, not an historic artifact. The best cars from this era are ones that he has not had his hands on.

Can Am and Ferrari - FIA Group 7
Can Am was a lucrative series for its time, especially once Johnson Wax came along and had larger purses than Formula 1. It is likely the primary reason that Ferrari was coerced to get involved at all. The fact that it was popular in the US was also a draw to Ferrari, if he could win. It was quickly clear that medium displacement endurance engines were not going to get the job done and Ferrari hated being shown up by large displacement American engines. He washed his hands of the cut down P4's and Can Am at that point, sending the first Can Am efforts of 0858 to Australia and 0860 to Bardinon.

In response to the FIA's second generation of Group 5 Sports cars requirement to be 5 liters with a run of 25 cars, Ferrari (having protested the '68 season through non participation) took the opportunity for the first and only time to purpose build a Can Am car. This second effort in Can Am, 612P 0866, was done as both a prototype test bed and to race it in a series where he might recoup some of his development costs. Initial body and aerodynamic development was done with an eye to Group 6 prototype rules and the 312P which were limited to 3 liters. With a little more factory support Ferrari might have done better in Can Am, but were generally the best of the rest in 1969, when they made the finish. What was learned with the large displacement 612P engines, chassis and suspension was applied to the entire 512 series with appropriate detuning and reduction in displacement to meet the rules and endurance requirements.

Ferrari later went back to modifying endurance cars (512 to 712, 1010) in their third and final factory effort in Can Am racing.

It is important to see Can Am from a European perspective, that of a popular and potentially lucrative series an ocean away that could help develop cars for the primary focus of FIA Manufacturers Championship and Endurance racing. The down side was getting beaten in the American market.

0858
Love or hate the fact that this car is being reconfigured, the wrong individual is doing the work IMO. As has been noted in this thread, the methods are wrong and based on that, as "pretty" as the finished product might be, the car will have an checkered history. It is additionally sad to lose the last 350 Can Am, regardless of its success or failure. The chassis remains 0858 regardless on how it is bodied or re bodied and both the P4 history and Can Am history attach to it. What will exist is a bit of a mishmash of 0858 from points in its history, with a modern interpretation of a P4 body. I think with different players involved, the modern alterations might have been met with greater acceptance. It seems equally silly to argue over factory "records" as we all know that they were and continue to be altered if it is advantageous to Ferrari. Ultimately, the only opinion that matters is the owner of this particular car.

Carry on with the argument that is unwinnable!

 

+1

and excellent and informative post altogether.

 

Agreed.

Excellent post. Thank you very much.