David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

True.

 

the nerve to call this a restoration. Really. Let's stick to the facts. This is no restoration. It is a recreation of a Ferrari P4 based on a perfecty authentic 350 Canam. At best.

 

Memories.

 

and photo 3 in your post 1709 shows the correct original 603C 247 N2 350 Can Am stampings that Original Ferrari 350 Can Am had in 1968 and still has today. Original 1967 Ferrari P4 never had this engine fitted.

 

True.

Misty Watercolored Memories of the way things were and haven't been since 1967.

 

I have asked two/three times now for clarification as to what remains of original 0858 P4 (pre Can Am)to even be restored. Judging from the responses it was clear.

The validity of calling this a 'restoration' is pretty much non existant at this point.

 

Exacto and calling it a "330" in advertising is false and misleading.

There is no question the engine is 350.

None.

 

Do we know what engine is going back in the car? You would be correct if 350 Can Am engine 0858 tipo 247 is going back in the car. Do we know where 330 P4 engine 0858 tipo 237 is located? It may have been with Piper and would be a logical addition to this effort. At that point you would indeed have a 330 P4 tipo 237 chassis 0858 with a new P4 body. I do not know that this is what is happening, but would be the proper way to do it.

 

I found this quote from some guy over in the Monterey sales thread. Thought it was a good point with respect to what's happening with 350 Can Am #0858.

 

"A man whose allegiance is ruled by expedience"

Werner Von Braun
Tom Lehrer

 

The TC site references this 247 N2 motor and has photo's of the engine stampings which as I said are the exact same 247 N2 Piper has in his replica "0900" the serial number of which Ferrari gave to LC's 312PB.

 

It is!

 

Well, I am off topic here - but you do have to admit that Werner Von Braun got us to the moon. (yes, I admit that he was a pretty bad Nazi as well)

OK - back to the topic - (which I know nothing about)...

 

I'm not trying to call anyone a Nazi, just commenting on the elasticity of logic.

 

I understand. And I think - thanks to your analogy - that maybe I sort of understand what David Piper is doing here.

Understand - but not approve.

 

Once the rockets go up...

 

This brings up an interesting point. We have no idea if Piper is supplying a 237 engine or if the engine being installed is going to be the 247. Same thing for the gearbox, Piper has both the later gearbox and the earlier ones, and these are probably available if so desired. The cars at one time had a "mountain" of spares, and we don't know if these are still around.

We know Piper has the blueprints for the P4 chassis. Restoring the chassis to P4 configuration is relatively straightforward, after all, it's just steel tubing and sheet aluminum, any good fab shop could do it. Given you have the prints, there isn't any magic required for that work. The suspension parts and wheels just bolt on, easily changed to P4 spec. The fuel cells are going to be replaced anyway, just make them correct to the P4 configuration. At that point you would have sitting in your shop P4 chassis 0858 as a roller.

Assemble the car with the with a correct engine and transmission and you have P4 0858, with no body.

Let's go a bit further and if Piper supplied period bodywork I'd go as far as to say that at that point 0858 would be a P4 again. So while it left Ferrari as a 350 canam, it would be a P4 if it was built that way. Piper can use the "English wheel" body on one of his cars with no reduction in the value of his car since, his cars don't need Italian bodywork.

Piper could trade P4 pieces for the 350 pieces and use them in his "900's", since they have no specific configuration, or he can use them as spares. Who knows, he might even be able to put the engine and transmission in the car that were in it in 1967. Stranger things have happened.

The point in all this supposition is that a very honest P4 can be assembled from the pieces that are readily available to folks restoring 0858. I don't see this happening, but if it did, that would make this a whole 'nother kettle of fish.

Were I the owner of the car I'd be working a deal with David to trade for the proper P4 bits, he gets the 350 pieces and 0858 ends up proper restored to a P4 with the 330 engine, 603 transmission, and P4 suspension pieces. I would think that the value of the car would be a lot greater in this configuration since a lot of the carping about the car would go away. One of Piper's 900's would get a number of 350 bits, but that car is a "bitsa" anyway, and it doesn't matter what bits go into it. Piper could profit, and still end up with complete cars on his side of the fence, and 0858 would be a P4 again.

 

Can you please clarify where in the blazing hell did you deduce this piece of information you repeat constantly, because as Marcel's pictures show, 0858 has been THE serial number for this chassis, forever. I simply cannot understand what you are talking about when you refer to this second serial number which is inexistent. I've made it a point to show that 603 is not a serial number, and nor does classiche consider it one, so this all really makes no sense at all. 0858 was MODIFIED IN PERIOD by Ferrari into a 350 Can Am. It hasn't been a P4 since the late 60's.

 

This thread is one of the best ever on f-chat. Not because of the back and forth, but because of the information it provides..the wealth of knowledge on here is quite astounding

 

Indeed, there are pictures of 0858 247 N2 on the web site. There are the pictures from the Classiche documents which is what was in the car when it arrived as a Classiched 350 Can Am. The question is what will the chassis have in it when it has been reconfigured. A change of engine to 0858 237 and a 603 gearbox would be much harder to argue about and is the best reason to have Piper involved. Again, I do not know that this is what is happening, but it might be a possibility.

If you put the chassis, engine and gearbox that ran LeMans back together and rolled it into Classiche, it would be interesting to see what they would do...

 

The tipo 603R gearbox in 0858 was used in both its configurations, 350 Can Am and 330 P4. Source = Ferrari Classiche.

 

Yes, good debate on a interesting topic.

 

I VERY strongly believe Piper doesn't have an original 237 P4 engine sitting around. I've seen his shop and spares and bought a few that turned out to be interesting.

There is one set of Original P3/412P heads existent that Piper tried for years to buy to build a "Bitsa" P3 motor for one of his replica's but the owner of them sold them to me as spares for a genuine car 0854. I also bought all of the remaining P spares in Modena including suspension,brakes,springs, gearboxes. gearsets, wheels, FI pumps, gauges, etc. etc. etc.
I also own 0858's original P4 Spyder Tail.

I agree that if someone had bought 350 Can Am at the auction and immediately turned it over
to Ferrari for several million euro they probably would have turned it back to a White Book P4
but as our friend Michael has said that train has left and they no longer will.

I don't believe there are ANY original P4 engines existent except for the one in 0856 and the parts of one as disclosed in my PDF in 0846. Where did 0858 and 0860 original
Blocks and heads go? Read my PDF especially what Sparling said. Look at the dual Tipo stamping I posted. Note that 237 blocks can be built as BOTH 3 and 4 liter. 247 blocks CAN'T be built as 3 liter. What used 3 liter in 68???

If Piper has an original 237 P4 motor and is installing it in TC's 0858 that would
be interesting but I think the odds of that are zero. Happy to be proved wrong and
would then like to know why he has to build a new header tank and curved air intakes
the craftsmanship of which don't amaze me if he had an original P4 motor sitting around???

 

In the last week Ferrari Classiche were asked to clarify if the 350 Can Am Tipo 247 4.2 litre engine currently installed in S/N 0858, and at the time the car was Ferrari Red Book Classiche Attested, was previously bored out and converted from a Tipo 237 4.0 litre 330 P4 engine in period, which was around 1967 or thereabouts, or whether it has always been a Tipo 247 4.2 litre engine and been in that configuration since it was manufactured as a new unit.

They replied that as reported on the certification book the engine 247 type No. 2 is the original one for the car. The information requested is not available. They did not say that the engine had not been bored out from a Tipo 237 P4 engine and they did not say that it has always been a Tipo 247 engine since manufactured as a new unit.

Ferrari Classiche were further asked if they would be able to confirm if the Tipo 247 No.2 in 0858 was previously a Tipo 237 engine.

They replied that the information requested is not available. They did not say that it had not previously been a Tipo 237 engine.

 

Lots of guesswork, assumptions and speaking unofficially on behalf of ferrari made by the detractors of the car on this thread.

Once the finished car is unveiled then the facts will be available for all to see and a true assessment of the re-conversion can be made, good or bad.