David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

Good post!

I eagerly await Tongascrew's response to this one...

 

No question many cars Vintage "racing" are pure replicas even at major events such as the Goodwood Revival and Classic Le Mans.

No question that: "even full disclosure does not alter the fact of the destruction of a surviving piece, which to me is far more of an issue."

No question that advertising this car as a "330" when it's a "350" is false and misleading and nothing but an attempt to hide the truth of what this car really is from potential buyers who read the advertisement TC had published.

In fairness to Ferrari they realized that calling this car a 1967 Ferrari 330 P4 was false and misleading and forced RM to clearly state exactly what the car was, a Ferrari 350 Can Am before the car was allowed to be auctioned at the Ferrari Factory.

The idea that 47 years after an original Ferrari 350 Can Am last left the Ferrari Factory fitting a period incorrectly made replica "P4" body, chopping Ferrari 0858's original 350 Can Am Chassis, adding a header tank and curved intake trumpets to an original Ferrari 350 Can Am engine magically turns a Ferrari 350 Can Am engine into a Ferrari "330" P4 engine or an original Ferrari 350 Can Am into an original Ferrari P4 remains as silly as it ever was.

Piper isn't Ferrari. Never has been. Never will be.

 

Ditto

 

Cheers

 

Jack, I was merely questioning the percentage. In answer to the points you raised:

1. They didn't kill it, they changed some of its details. If they killed it they'd have thrown it in the skip outside.

2. They did not build a new car but changed some its details and called it a new one. The Can Am chassis tipo was 603C but I have not seen any evidence that it is stamped 603C. If it is please supply a picture. The biggest change made to this car was in the calling it a Can Am.

3. I may be wrong about this but wasn't the Red Book Classiche Certification and the process undertaken to achieve it made after the auction but was a condition of the auction?

4. Ferrari Classiche will not grant 0858 a White Book either in P4 configuration.

5. I don't agree that the car is being "butchered" but yes the configuration is changing from Can Am to P4 and it is a shame to lose the Can Am, but do bear in mind that all the Can Am parts are being kept with the car.

6. It does have the wrong tipo engine but tipo 247 is a bored out tipo 237 and they are essentially the same engine. Although the factory have not committed that engine tipo 247 0858 N2 was previously a tipo 237 P4 engine they have not committed that it was not and I would say that this engine was previously a tipo 237 P4 engine, but I am happy to be proved wrong in the quest for the truth.

There is no denying this car has been both a 330 P4 and a 350 Can Am and even if a tipo 237 spec engine was put in it the Can Am part of its life cannot be erased so why can't the fact that both its configurations be celebrated by retaining the tipo 247 engine? Regarding the English wheel body, much of the centre section of the car is still original P4 including the sills and doors. All that really needs to be made by the traditional method to satisfy the English Wheel opposition are the front and rear clams. I'm sure these can be made by someone like Allegretti much more quickly than the painstaking and time consuming method DP's people are taking to do it.

7. I do not think that Talacrest's advertising of the car as a 330 P4 is intended to in anyway deceive. Everybody knows about this car and what's happening to it. They do include pictures of the car as a Can Am and its race history as a Can Am. Talacrest can't be more transparent in disclosing the process of its reconfiguration.

 

I have been waiting MONTHS for this post !

 

Steve,

1)
They killed it. 0858 P4 ceased to exist when 0858 350 Can Am was born in 1967.
2)
Details? New engine, possibly a new gearbox, a new body on a changed chassis (the latter having undergone enough change to give it a new tipo designation). What exactly is still P4 in that? A VERY small percentage.
3)
Can't say, but either way doesn't alter the fact.
4)
Correct. IMO the reasons are obvious.
5)
The configuration is NOT changing from Cab Am to P4. It is a 350 Cab Am made to LOOK like a P4.
6)
Wrong engine, correct. Indications strongly suggest, contrary to your opinion, that the engine currently present (a tipo 247 Can Am engine) started life as a tipo 247, not 237, seeing that the 237 stamping is lacking.
"Celebrating both" as you suggest is a stillborn idea. The only thing it indicates is that the car is not correct as a P4, and is no longer correct as a 350 Can Am.
The fact that much of the chassis and a very small part of the body remain P4 does not alter this.
The fact that the car is presented as a P4 is misleading and false, and it may be 'common knowledge', but that doesn't take away the fact that it is NOT what is for sale.

I do like your statement that what has been removed from the car stays with it.

That, however, doesn't change what was demolished, and what was/is being created: An original 350 Can Am was sacrificed to create a replica P4.

Just my 2 cts,

Best,

Jack.

 

Why?
I don't see much, if anything, new.

 

Hmm, now what do you suppose are the chances of similar hyperventilating fraud as this will follow the David Piper/Talacrest synthetic "330 P4" as it passes in and out of the marketplace in the coming years and decades? I'd guess about 100%.

 

Seems like eveything they have stated is true. Just because Ferrari hacked up the P4 to create an unloved failure, doesn't magically eliminate history. 0858 won Monza as a P car, not a Can Am. While I wouldn't have chopped up the Can Am, its interesting that so many are now accepting everything out of Maranello as gospel in regards to this car. Many of the same folks that regularely criticize the Classiche program, Ferrari's old habit of randomly stamping numbers and rehashing race cars are suddenly aghast at this cars return to a more popular version. I'm certain that a proper body could be constructed and most of the original P4 parts sourced and at that point why wouldn't it be considered a P4? Far worse examples of collector cars have been "restored" and returned to earlier versions without such carrying on. Should every car/engine that left Ferrari restamped or modified be required to remain in its most recent form? I still maintain that Ferrari themselves would have recertified the car if they were allowed to do all the work and cash the check.
As I stated earlier, I wouldn't have chopped the Can Am(I actually find it an attractive and aggressive design)-just astounded at all the consternation.

 

A 250 GTE Rebodied as a 250 GTO is still considered by Ferrari and pretty much the rest of the people in the know to be a 250 GTE so when you title it, it will be titled as a 250 GTE. It should also be marketed as a 250 GTE rebodied to resemble a 250 GTO.

What will 0858 be titled as? Seeing that Ferrari still considers it to be a 350 Can Am as that is the way it last left them. What will the car be titled as when it is finished?

Once titled what is the proper way to market the car?

330 P4?

or 350 Can Am rebodied to resemble a p4?

 

So if the reverse was true and a 250 GTO was rebodied as a 250 GTE then you and everyone would still call it a 250 GTO?

So if a P4 was rebodied as a Can Am what would people call that? um a P4 I guess using your analogy

 

In Oregon, it would be titled as a Ferrari with chassis number 0858...that's pretty much it. I don't know why anybody puts credence in any bureaucratic system like a DMV. There is no historical research associated with titling a vehicle...it's just a piece of paper. MANY vehicle titles have errors and many do not have a model associated with them (I have many motorcycles that are titled as: "make: BMW / model: MC" ).

Modern VIN requirements are different than the requirements were in the 60s/70s. As a result, some DMV computer systems require a 17 digit VIN. If a DMV office somehow assigned the VIN#: 00000000000000858 to this car, would that mean anything historically? Is that a piece of evidence that verifies or proclaims what this car is or is not? Nope. Just a piece of paper.

 

Well put boxeman. There is no question what is going on at Talacrest and what their final objective is. They have showed us many nice pictures. Hopefully some day they will put in written form what exactly they are doing and how it is being done with even more detailed pictures. Jim, to his great credit,is way out in front on this issue and everyone knows this. What I would recommend, and at some expense, would be to bring in a couple of "experts" and let them do an in depth evaluation and publish a detailed report of the progress so far.It might change some opinions but with some positive evaluations of the work could create some real interest from potential buyers. There is no question that there is a financial side to all this.Piper and Talacrest as well as so many others have made a good living over the years building and restoring important cars. Without them where would we as enthusiasts be without them. tongascrew

 

See post 1839 tongascrew

 

A very reasonable point of view. tongascrew

 

Quality post. quoted for truth.

 

Who cares how its titled?!!!

And the GTO/GTE analogy is nonsense unless we pretend for a minute there was an original GTO that got rebodied as GTE later on......so whats the most likely outcome of such a scenario? Right, getting it back to a GTO asap. The same thing is being done with 0858.....and has been done to 0860 long ago for the same reasons.

 

I] much of 0858 P4 will exist again some day 2]Chassis tipo 603C exists on paper only. 0858 is still the chassis # on the car from the start. 3} Noone would buy it even with a promised Red Book certificate.4]Ferrari never officially stated they destroyed the car 5] There are prospective buyers who won't care about the Red Book when they have a chance to own what was originally 0858 P4 rebuilt as near as possible to the original P4. 6] It is clear there is no clear history, even when raced by the factory, what engine by number was in the car at any given time. Sincerely yours tongascrew

 

Yep. It'd still be a GTO. Do you honestly want to argue that a 250 GTE with a GTO body is now a GTO????

And if the car last left Ferrari as a P4 and then you rebodied it as a Can Am your logic would be logical. But it wasn't rebodied outside of Ferrari as a Can Am.

So according to your logic reboying it as a P4 outside of Ferrari still leaves a Can Am.

And Ferrari Re-engineering a P4 as a Can Am now leaves it as a Can Am cause they did it. Not some other shop outside the factory without their blessing.

As ferrari will Red Book this as a Can Am and wont white book it as a P4 it is pretty clear what the car is really thought to be by them.

The reason the title would be important to me is what goes on the title is what the manufacturer truly thinks the car is.

Most titles will state make and Model and not just a Vin.

I bet there is no way to get this car titled as a P4 without Ferrari's blessing.

Which you wont get.

You could however get it titled as a 350 Can Am with No problem as that is what Ferrari looks at it as being.

That's why the DMV is important. Because they are going to title the car for what the manufacterer states it is and in then end they're the one that counts.

Think it's a real P4 still? Then get Ferrari to say it is. Till then it's a Can Am that can no longer get red booked and as a P4 will never even get a white book.

Who cares what Ferrari says?

I would. as they are the one that builds them and creates every cars identity.

Do they know every little aspect of their cars and should you take their word as Gospel? No. There are people that know more then them but when it comes to is this car this or that I'd say the answer is yes cause for a car to be something it has to be the car the factory agrees it is when it last left their hands.


Is a 250 GTE re-bodied as a 250 GTO still 100% a 250 GTE? The answer is no. It is partly a Ferrari 250 GTE and part Non Ferrari recreation. But the part of the car that can be identified as Ferrari is the 250 GTE.

Tell me paul, If you were to sell a GTE rebodied as a GTO would you market it as a 250 Ferrari GTO or would you state what it actually is? A 250 GTE rebodied with an aftermarket 250 GTO body?

 

Advertising the car as something that it isn't is in no way deceptive? That is just weird. If Talacrest was truly upfront, they would advertise the car as a 350 Canam with a fake P4-body, since that is what it is.

 

Why would we need to pretend that?

But to play along if someone actually re-bodied a 250 gto as a 250 gte then it should be marketed as a 250 GTO with a 250 Rebody.

It doesn't change the facts of the car is what it is when it left the factory.

The Breadvan might be the breadvan but it will always be a 250 SWB due to it's not a factory re-body. Whereas if the factory rebodys a car it assumes the new identity last created by Ferrari.

Classiche may not have the best record when it comes to knowing authenticity of certain items on the car and there may be better qualified scrutineers. There may also be people that do not put any trust in Classiche when it comes to this.

But we are talking about 2 very different things here.

We are talking about what does the factory consider this car to be. And they are the creators of the car and determine what it is. Seeing that they destroyed the P4 to make this and released it as 350 Can Am that is now what it is.

You can throw a P4 body on it but it is still a 350 Can Am with a fake P4 body.

 

I would market a converted 250GTE as a GTE with a reproduction GTO body. I dont care who did the work, ferrari would just farm it out to specialists even if it was sent to them anyway.

Just like I would market a Can Am as a rebodied/re-engineered P4.

If I were marketing 0858 as it stands now I would call it a P4 which was rebodied/re- engineered as a Can Am in period, that is now reverting back to its original P4 spec as closely as possible/practical.

If a replacement full P4 spec engine was not available then I would resleeve the block of the Cam Am spec motor to P4 size and fit P4 spec internals until a suitable original P4 engine became available in later years.

If the hammered finish is so desired then I would have a new nose and rear clam made and kept as spares and retain the current english wheel versions on the car.

This car will keep reverting back to full P4 spec for years to come, long after its left Talacrests ownership, as and when the components turn up.

 

I'm 100% sure you would do just that!

I suggest we call your novel,..."How to Destroy a Rare Ferrari", by "Paul500".

 

I'll just get on the phone to John Collins now and tell him to change his adverts.