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Daytona s/n 16777

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by peloton, Feb 17, 2020.

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  1. peloton

    peloton Karting

    Jul 6, 2005
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    I'm considering purchasing this car, repainted by Wayne Carini from original rosso dino to fly yellow in 2009.

    Any info on the car will be appreciated.
     
  2. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    Mar 2, 2005
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    Repaint was in 07 not 09.
    Has had at least 11 owners from new.
    Unsold since August 2016 when Price/Legendary Motorcars had it at the Cole auction in Monterey.

    Marcel Massini

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  3. peloton

    peloton Karting

    Jul 6, 2005
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    Thanks, Marcel!
     
  4. gcalex

    gcalex Karting

    Aug 16, 2010
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    Good photos here: https://www.fantasyjunction.com/sold/1973-ferrari-365-gtb-4-daytona-1/photos

    For a car with so few miles, it is unfortunate that someone chose to pull the emissions gear. Some tools don't look quite right.

    I remember looking at these photos in the past. An interesting thing is that pretty much all the under carriage is painted black; given how few miles are on the car, it made me wonder whether the later cars actually came with the (generally expected) CAD finishes on things like the A-arms...
     
  5. Wheels1

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    #5 Wheels1, Feb 18, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2020
    No way did the arms come covered in black paint, it looks to have messed around with by someone who did not know what they were doing, look at red gasket sealant coming away and why did they grind of the "Ferrari 251" off the engine block? The only reason I can think of is, they thought it should not be there and the engine number should, clearly no idea. The left rear bumper looks wonky and the fronts look too low. rear number plate holder coming off. Euro front indicator lens as well. non standard Ventilated brake discs [ rotors] the front grill looks deformed so has it had a front end crash? The photo with the boot lid raised may show the boot lid [ trunk] is out of shape? wrong brake light lens's as well. If you are thinking of buying it take someone with you who can check it over for damage in the past.

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  6. Wheels1

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    Most of the smog stuff seems to still be there from what I can see. The exhaust is right, electronic ignition is still there, smog pump looks to be there but its hard to see for sure.
    The fuel tanks seem to be a miss match in colour, maybe one had a leak or had to be changed for another reason, air cleaner cover is missing 2 studs and nuts, wiper arms and blades are black, not stainless, seat belts are not correct for a 73. It seems to had a hard life for such a low mileage car.
     
  7. TTR

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    While few of the above assessments appear inaccurate, your overall listing of non-OEM details & features seem to be quite far from complete.
    Some life’s are just harder than others, even if often misleading mileage obsession may suggest otherwise, especially when having less of latter is not necessarily a good thing.
     
  8. Wheels1

    Wheels1 F1 Rookie
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    Hi Timo. you lost me a bit with the above. Are you saying there more things might be wrong than I said or you disagree with things I said? simple English a Simple English man can undestand please.
     
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  9. TTR

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    For example, seat belts & wiper arms are correct for delivery destination & year, but the list of non-(OEM)correct details and features could fill pages upon pages.
    Simple enough, I hope.
     
  10. Wheels1

    Wheels1 F1 Rookie
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    Thanks Timo, you were right on the seat belts, I just checked the Ferrari tech. bulletin from 1973 and it looks to be just RHD cars that had different seat belts in that year.

    Can you enlighten me on the black wiper blades and arms? Was it all years of USA cars that had black wiper arms and blades, I have seen quite a few with Stainless steel Arman blades and some with black, it would be good to know what is correct?
     
  11. TTR

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    While my experience and research is far from comprehensive enough to be authoritative, it does suggests that at least mid-to-late production U.S. delivery cars, due to D.O.T./NTHSA regulations introduced at the time, were required to have non-reflective windshield wiper arms and majority of the relatively original (un-messed with) U.S. delivered cars I’ve seen or studied seem to have come with black arms and blade supports made by “arman&c”.

    Hopefully this makes sense ? If not, I apologize. As I’ve mentioned before English is not my native language nor have I ever received any formal education for it.
     
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  12. gcalex

    gcalex Karting

    Aug 16, 2010
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    Horn boss was also generally black on US cars; I've always presumed, for similar reasons.

    Shoulder-belt also looks like it is missing in one picture, probably did not come from factory that way... :)

    I still wonder about the black under-carriage. I've seen a number of late Daytonas like this, and more than one with pretty low miles. Of course, this particular car seems to have had a lot of work done on it, so probably not a reliable example to go by.
     
  13. Wheels1

    Wheels1 F1 Rookie
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    Please see this factory video from 1971 which shows the suspension being fitted on the factory line, the finish did not get get over sprayed with black under seal, this was done on the cars you have seen to cover up the rust to make them more presentable for sale I would think, or maybe extra protection by an an owner. Please can you add your name to your profile ?
    from 10 mins in.
     
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  14. gcalex

    gcalex Karting

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    Hi Grant,

    Yes, I've seen that video. In my original post, I meant 72/73 when I said "later cars".

    If I had to bet, I would say that you are probably right.

    My doubts are due to the fact that the type of black paint I've seen is surprisingly uniform (in type/finish across different cars), and I'm not sure that I've ever seen this sort of treatment on an earlier car. It is clearly an overspray that was done after the undercarriage was assembled, so maybe it was something that some dealers started to do as a rust-control measure...

    So hard to know what was really original. I looked at a couple of "time capsules" that clearly had been redone when examined closely.

    I also find it ironic how common cars like 16777 are; very low mileage, but all sorts of work done to them. My guess is that low mileage tends to attract folks who want to "pay more for the very best" and thus such cars are prone to having a long string of owners; each new owner is then willing to pay the money to "make their car perfect" and before too long, you have a low mileage car that has been completely redone... :)

    Cheers,
    Alex
     
  15. Italian Tuneup

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    I don´t believe the low mileage reading on many cars of that period. Today it seems easier to find a 10.000 mile car than finding a car with 110.000 miles.:rolleyes:

    Some people don´t even bother to swap the 10$ pedal rubber on a car with "believable" 10k miles that looks like rubber from a 50k+ mileage car.
     
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  16. 375+

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    I think that high mileage cars are more commonplace in Europe than in the USA. I've seen a number of European spec Daytona coupes that have been around the clock(100,000 km) at least once.
     
  17. TTR

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    I admittedly didn’t spend a whole lot of time studying each photo, but an earlier cursory look of some revealed enough to support my aforementioned assessments.

    As for the undercarriage or engine compartment in which just about everything is covered with (flat) black paint (or undercoating), it is the most commonly used, quick and easy “detailing”/“dress up” trick to cover up or hide any unsightly deficiencies, issues or problems, be they corrosion, dirt, leakage residue, road grime/-rash, worn components, etc. and has been seen employed in efforts to sell used cars, including vintage Ferraris*, longer than there’s been spray cans.
    Since it probably doesn’t take much more than half an hour and couple of spray cans, it is the easiest and most cost effective way offer clean and uniform appearance, especially in photos**, to those with untrained eye or unfamiliarity with the make or model of (any) car in question.

    * Even our esteemed Mr. Niles has admitted having resorted to similar efforts back in his days of buying/selling/trading quite special cars.

    ** This supports the catch (para)phrase I coined over 30 years ago (when buying/selling/trading vintage cars for living): “A photograph can lie more than thousand words”.
     
  18. TTR

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    When it comes to owning classic/exotic/vintage cars, I believe Americans have traditionally been much more susceptible to that Jim G. reference of having a beautiful girlfriend and therefor probably more easily victimized by (low) mileage fraudsters.
     
  19. Edward 96GTS

    Edward 96GTS F1 Rookie
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    if i said it once, i said it a thousand times, “buy the car, not the speedometer”.
    ed
     
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  20. TTR

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    ... and drive it at least one mile for every Dollar/Euro/Pound sterling you paid for it !
     
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  21. readplays

    readplays Formula 3

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    I'm in the 'drive it at least one mile for every japanese yen (or better yet, italian lira) you paid for it' camp :D
     
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  22. TTR

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    And that’s probably much more than majority of classic/exotic/vintage car owners in the U.S. generally manage. :rolleyes:
    I’m trying (hard) to manage a mile per dollar annual average with my ‘32 Sports Roadster, but fortunately (for me) those figures are based on its purchase price 30+ years ago. ;)
    OTOH, if the driving amount figures related to my other current (vintage) cars were to be used, I’d probably have to stop considering myself as a real (vintage) car guy. :(
     
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