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Daytona starter removal

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by thecarnut, Jun 11, 2018.

  1. thecarnut

    thecarnut Formula 3

    Apr 22, 2006
    2,160
    Atlanta
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    The Car Nut
    I want to replace the Daytona's starter with a gear reduction type. It appears that the exhaust manifold needs to be removed or at least moved out of the way.

    What exactly needs to be removed to be able to get the starter out. If the exhaust manifold needs to come out ... what is the best way to get to the nuts? Any tips would be appreciated.

    Ivan
     
  2. malcolmb

    malcolmb Formula Junior
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Apr 17, 2002
    865
    San diego
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    Malcolm Barksdale
    Ivan: dont know the answer to your question...but I have the gear reduction starter and love it.
     
  3. westextifosi

    westextifosi Karting
    Rossa Subscribed

    Oct 20, 2009
    193
    Lubbock, TX
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    Tex Timberlake
    Having done this on my Daytona a number of years ago, I remember that the right rear header needs to come off and the motor mounts loosened and the motor raised slightly to get the old starter off. The gear-reduction starter being much smaller is a breeze to install.
     
  4. thecarnut

    thecarnut Formula 3

    Apr 22, 2006
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    I have one in my Dino and it made a huge difference. I recently got this Daytona and it had some problems spinning over after a 2 hour drive. The Dino had similar problems when the starter got very hot.

    I already ordered the gear reduction starter for the Daytona, now I need to figure out how to swap it with the old one. I am a DIY type of guy that likes to take things apart and put them back together :)

    Ivan
     
  5. thecarnut

    thecarnut Formula 3

    Apr 22, 2006
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    The Car Nut
    What is the best way to get to the header nuts? From the bottom, top, or wheel well? Do you recall what, if anything, needs to be removed to get to the header nuts?

    Ivan
     
  6. westextifosi

    westextifosi Karting
    Rossa Subscribed

    Oct 20, 2009
    193
    Lubbock, TX
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    Tex Timberlake
    It has been about 10 years, but I think the header nuts can be accessed from the bottom. I unbolted the header exhaust shield and moved it out of the way also;( it can't be removed completely without removing the oil line, but not really necessary anyway; just move it out of the way).
     
  7. Dogdish

    Dogdish Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 27, 2005
    345
    Denver
    As I recall, I pulled the right front wheel off. I think you can get to all of them from the top, bottom and through the fender well. Some aren't easy, it takes patience to get the correct wrench or socket combo to get at it. I think they are brass, so make sure you don't round off the flats. I sprayed Kroil (liquid Wrench, WD-40) for a day or two to soak in. The gear reduction is much smaller, so much easier for future removal.
     
  8. malcolmb

    malcolmb Formula Junior
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Apr 17, 2002
    865
    San diego
    Full Name:
    Malcolm Barksdale
    oK Ivan, I asked my mechanic who currently has four Daytona’s in his shop. I trust him, took my Daytona to him for big service even though he is 2400 miles away. His response- “ standard starter can be removed without removing the headers, might lose a finger or two”. Don’t you have small hands? Maybe loosen headers and gain a few inches.
    Good luck. You have too many fingers anyway.
    Malcolm
     
  9. Drew Altemara

    Drew Altemara Formula 3

    Feb 11, 2002
    1,304
    Tuscaloosa, AL
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    Drew Altemara
    I had to remove the headers to remove my starter. I did not have to touch the motor mounts.

    Getting to 2 or 3 of the header nuts takes a lot of patients. As I remember the front header bottom nut is accessed from under the front of the car just barely. The rear header is not that bad. Take note the order you remove them as it’s a little tight getting things back together.

    You might want to put some rags under the headers directly below the nuts as I inevitably drop one.

    Take your time. It’s a hobby remember.

    Drew


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  10. thecarnut

    thecarnut Formula 3

    Apr 22, 2006
    2,160
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    The Car Nut
    Thanks Drew. The rear header is now out ... and I still have all my fingers. I am trying to remove the two nuts that hold the starter to see if I can wiggle it out without having to remove the front header. The outside starter nut came out easy but the back one I can't get a wrench around it. I have a 17mm wrench that I made very thin years ago for this type of situation and even that one is not working here. I am afraid of removing more metal from the wrench as there is hardly any left. What did you use to remove that nut?

    Ivan
     
  11. Drew Altemara

    Drew Altemara Formula 3

    Feb 11, 2002
    1,304
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    Drew Altemara
    I know that starter nut. It’s the one that’s tucked up in there.

    Make sure it’s not a 15mm nut.

    Regardless of the size, I used an open end Craftsman wrench. You only get an eight of a turn before you have to reorient. Make sure the front header is not interfering with the travel of the wrench.

    Good luck.

    Drew


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  12. thecarnut

    thecarnut Formula 3

    Apr 22, 2006
    2,160
    Atlanta
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    The Car Nut
    Ok, got the nut out. Some dummy that worked on the car before put in the wrong nut! It is the correct thread but with a bigger head. It took a very thin 19mm box wrench to take it out. The front nut had a 17mm head which would have made it a lot easier to get a wrench around it had they put it in the back. If they loss one of the proper nuts why on earth would they put the bigger head in the back!

    My current situation is the rear exhaust manifold is out, the starter motor is loose, and I'm trying to figure out how to slide the starter completely out of the hole. It hits the motor mount and I have not been able to completely clear the hole. I am trying to remove the starter from the car without having to remove the front exhaust manifold. Some people have mentioned loosening the engine mount and raising the engine a few inches. At this time I'm not sure how that will help.

    Time to take a rest and go at it later today.

    Ivan
     
  13. TTR

    TTR Formula 3
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    Mar 29, 2007
    1,596
    Riverside, CA
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    Timo
    Sounds like some "dummy"(?) replaced correct starter mounting nuts incorrectly. M17 hex should be on the upper and M19 hex on the lower stud.

    Couple of side notes:
    - If removal of headers require engine lifting (i.e. unbolting of motor mount), it probably means the motor mount is "collapsed" or missing its "spacer" or both.
    - A.F.A.I.K., OEM starter motors on Daytonas are very strong and if properly maintained/serviced, should not cause starting difficulties. In most cases I've observed, including other makes/models, switching to gear reduction starter, while seemingly offering an instant cure/gratification, is more often than not just a compensation for some other underlying (fuel delivery, ignition, compression, etc ?) issue or problem, which will still be there, but now more "hidden" and easier(?) to ignore.
     
  14. thecarnut

    thecarnut Formula 3

    Apr 22, 2006
    2,160
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    Ok, that makes sense, in other words the dummy put the starter nuts backwards.

    I did not have to lift the engine to remove the rear header, therefore it looks like my motor mounts are ok.

    Still need to figure out how t remove this starter. Can the OEM starter come out without having to remove the front header?

    Ivan
     
  15. Drew Altemara

    Drew Altemara Formula 3

    Feb 11, 2002
    1,304
    Tuscaloosa, AL
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    Drew Altemara
    I remember them being different sizenuts with the smaller tucked in the craves. Glad you are making progress. I removed both headers to pull the starter and the motor mount was not in the way. However, I never considered leaving the front header on. Maybe I did some extra work. Sorry cannot help on that one. Drew
     
  16. thecarnut

    thecarnut Formula 3

    Apr 22, 2006
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    Success ! I ended pulling the front header out and the starter was easy to remove. The reason I was so reluctant to remove the front header it is that I discovered that someone used steel nuts instead of brass. The rear header had shinny brass nuts therefore someone had been in there not that long ago .... perhaps working on the starter.

    Of course the steel nuts had frozen into the studs and the only way the header was coming out was to remove the studs from the head. This made an already uncomfortable job even more painful. Luckily with PB Blaster at my side, and all sorts of contortions, the darn things came out ... very slowly.

    Next step is to install the new starter and hope that the engine spins.

    For those that may be interested, this is a photo of the original starter next to the gear reduction.
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    Ivan

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  17. Drew Altemara

    Drew Altemara Formula 3

    Feb 11, 2002
    1,304
    Tuscaloosa, AL
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    Drew Altemara
    Congratulations. Let us know what you think of the reduced gear starter. I just had my old one rebuilt as it was slow going when hot.
     
  18. thecarnut

    thecarnut Formula 3

    Apr 22, 2006
    2,160
    Atlanta
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    For the benefit of those that may be faced with having to remove a Daytona starter, below are the steps I took (before I forget them).
    My car was built on December 1971 and is a USA version. A two post lift, I would say, is mandatory as you will be raising and lowering the car many times.

    1. Disconnect battery
    2. Remove air cleaner assembly which will require the removal of the 24 nuts on top of the carburetors
    3. Disconnect the air pump hose from the right side check valve
    4. Disconnect the right side heat shield and slide it out of the way. No need to disconnect the large oil line.
    5. Remove front right wheel
    6. Remove the three bolts that connect the rear header to the center muffler. There is a donut seal which can be reused if in good condition.
    7. Using a 12 mm wrench, remove the 5 nuts on the rear manifolds. One of the nuts is also used to attach one end of the starter heat shield. Some of the nuts are better reached from the bottom, some from the wheel well and some from the top. This is where a two post lift, where you can raise and lower the car, comes in very handy. It takes patience and some pain to get these 5 nuts out.
    8. You may want to loosen the front starter nut and remove the heat shield at this time. No need to completely remove the starter nut as the shield attachment is slotted. Once the manifold is loose it can be wiggled out of the car from the bottom. It may appear it will not come out, but it does.
    9. Remove both starter nuts. The rear nut most likely will have a smaller head than the front. In my car someone reversed the nuts making it much harder to remove the rear nut.
    10. I was told the starter could come out without having to remove the front manifold. The original starter is large and heavy and there is very limited amount of space to get your hands around it. After 1 hour trying the wiggle it out I gave up and decided to remove the front manifold.
    11. Remove the 3 bolts attaching the front manifold to the center muffler. The front manifold’s 5 nuts are even harder to reach. With a lot of patience, and a few Italian four letter words, they will come out. Once loose you may discover that the manifold will not clear the frame rail. In this case, loosen the engine mount bolt which can be easily reached though the wheel well. Slightly raise the engine using a hydraulic jack with a flat piece of wood. You want to be gentle doing this as it should not take much to clear the frame rail.
    12. With both manifolds out removing the starter is very easy.
    13. The gear reduction starter is much lighter, smaller and does a great job at spinning the engine. It easily bolts on with no modifications other than putting a spade connector on the solenoid wire. Don’t forget to re-use the starter heat shield
    14. Re-assembly of the manifolds is the reverse. Make sure to clean the head's exhaust ports and to use new exhaust manifold gaskets. I also used new brass nuts. The last thing you want to discover is an exhaust manifold leak after doing all this work.
    15. Good luck and I sure hope to never do this job again.

    Ivan
     
  19. afwrench

    afwrench Formula Junior

    Nov 24, 2004
    433
    NY
    Full Name:
    Mike
    Hi Ivan, I have had a gear reduction starter in my 365 GTC4 for many years with no problems at all. I will admit that I like the sound of the original units better . Mike
     
  20. geffen365gtc/4

    geffen365gtc/4 Karting

    Mar 12, 2005
    178
    I have the gear reduction starter, but have yet to install it on my C/4. I read that if you take apart the original starter, you can get it out w/o removing the headers. The new starter, being much smaller, goes right in. Any thoughts??


    Geffen
     
  21. thecarnut

    thecarnut Formula 3

    Apr 22, 2006
    2,160
    Atlanta
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    I can't speak to access on a C/4 but simply getting your hands around the starter in a Daytona is a chore. Worth trying but I would keep my expectations of success rather low.

    Ivan
     
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  22. Telerding

    Telerding Formula Junior

    Sep 30, 2004
    362
    Santa Maria/CA
    Full Name:
    Tom Elerding
    Having done this swap on my car (when motor was out for rebuild) the downside is your exotic Daytona now sounds like a Toyota on initial startup.
     

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