Dealers make it easy

I'm a first time "new" Ferrari owner. Purchased my 488 back in March, at that time my dealer had around 5 488's in inventory and in fact only 1 of the 5 has sold with the rest of the cars sitting around the showroom. I suspect one reason is they're priced too high and the dealer refuses to badge and the other might be the demand isn't there for the 488 atm. I've been looking at the exotic car market up here in Canada and unfortunately the 488 prices aren't holding up. I expect I will lose quite a bit of money when I go trade it in a couple years for the replacement but I guess the price you pay for owning cars like this from new.

 

That seems really cheap. Collision on the 458 with my insurer is roughly an extra $100/mo last time I checked. I have a great record, a home and other cars with them.

 

The 488 depreciation started in 2017... The owners who get from brand new and early cars have dual ideas for getting those cars... They like to get every car that comes out and helps get further up the line or stay in line. As long as they can continue to get the L.E. or special edition cars then they won't be so bothered with the depreciation. (they usually get out early and minimize the impact). The second owners of those early type cars are going to bit the biggest bullets and the people who bought from brand new a couple of years into the production cycle will also take bullets. On-line and in real world; I did see enthusiasm drop on ferrari brand but mainly new people who are just getting into exotic cars who took bullets and when they tried to get Pista and were shut out then realized how this system works.

Not many people have been talking about lack of depreciation on any car forums on the regular production models across any marquee (and for good reason).

 

It’s the other way around - the cars will depreciate because buyers shift away from the brand. I don’t think that is really happening.

True, Ferrari production has been increasing these last years but so has global demand. The Portofino/California line has accounted for much of this and the demand for Pista is very high. The 488’s demand/supply story is similar to the 458 and 430 before it IMO and the residual experience is pretty similar at this point in the cycle. Which is to say pretty good - comparable or slightly better than Porsche, quite a bit better than McLaren. Remember 488 is two years older than 720 so their cycles do not coincide and 720 is already suffering from fairly strong depreciation. Soon (maybe even already) there will be far fewer 488 GTB/Spider produced and the replacement to be announced in 2019 is rumoured to be either the much more expensive V8 or the V6 (though some say could also be a third generation of the current platform - which doesn’t seem likely to me).

Therefore if you want a modern, 600+hp Ferrari V8 at around £200k the choice will not be so much, especially for nicely spec’d cars with decent mileage and condition. I don’t think it will drop below the 458 for a long while.

 

It's not the other way around, both are true and happen as a consequence of each other.
I am not talking specifically about the 488 which is at the end of its cycle. I'm talking about the strategy of the brand with regards to pricing, volumes, and that also applies to the "488 market segment".

Most buyers won't go on F-Chat discuss the branding and future or history of the company, they are not passionate about it. They want a reward, a status piece, an achievement. That's what Ferrari offers, the idea of how exceptional the brand and products are being reinforced by the fact that on contrary to most brands some of their mainstream products keep their value real well.
When time comes for clients to buy a new toy, one of the factors coming into play is depreciation.
This is true for first owners, and second hand owners.
Similarly, depreciation is the very thing keeping many buyers from getting into McLaren at the moment (at least on a new car basis) especially when they know (knew) that there was an alternative in the market (488) which kept value very well.

If Ferrari starts producing 488s like they do for Portofinos, Lussos.....which depreciate big time, just like they are challenged selling those models now, they will start struggling further selling the Mid Engine segment.
As they struggle more selling their cars, their cars will depreciate further, taking clients away from the brands (the non Ferrari hard headed passionate dreamers, which is more of their client base), and feeding the depreciation into a McLaren type of situation : more cars than demand, too many new models.
It's fine to some, I ordered my Lusso loaded and new as this is the car I wanted.
Now, while I would definitely already have ordered another Lusso as I drive my car a descent amount, I won't partly due to the stiffer than normal depreciation.

The new pricing strategy seems to indicate that they will markup and sell cars at a higher price all across the line.
Many buyers of the Pistas, TDF....buy the vehicles thinking it's a good investment. This is true fact, verified by the staggering amount of low mileage LE cars (not even talking about the LAF...)
When buyers won't be able to make a buck, or maintain value on their Pista, they won't be pushed around buying a Lusso for the right to get a Pista anymore. Less sales, more Lusso depreciation, less demand on the Pista, less second hand value, more depreciation.

Ferrari shifting their sales strategy is to me not only the result of them having IPOed, but that they know it is time to milk the cow, milk their brand, multiply models, increase production, raise prices, ..... In a few years from now, when many cars will be electrified, self driving, their product offering will be obsolete.
You won't buy a Ferrari for Status, you'll buy a supra luxurious Rolls.

 

BaronM69 said: ↑
If Ferraris like the 488 start depreciating like the 720s, or Lussos..., far more buyers will shift away from the brand.

Appears in USA the 488 has depreciated more than the 720. I may be wrong but anecdotal transaction data suggests this is true.

 

Depreciation also depends heavily on how you optioned the car. Do you have a $13K metallic paint job? Well that will yield close to $500 on trade in, if anything at all, etc.

Another user posted many Manheim Ferrari transactions a few weeks ago showing this. Tend to hold their value well unless a highly optioned MSRP or miles.

 

Try to sell one and you will see ...... very little demand for a used 720.

 

Good thing I’m not selling one. Just buying and enjoying.

 

Will you be keeping it permanently?


Sent from my 16M

 

To me it seems people have only short term memories - for whatever reason Ferrari had exceptional resale values in 2015-2017, but things are just going back to normal now (while some still dream about the previous situation, justifying the overpricing for the Pista).
A 458 is significantly less expensive now than new, and it's only sensible.
A Ferrari loses less than a common car, but there is still a loss to be expected, except for very limited editions (or, only temporarily, due to the support of speculators).
The F12 did not lose much in the first three years (that's one of the reasons why I replaced my 599 by a brand new 488 rather than an F12), but now they are selling for about EUR 180K; and when considering a Pista, the expected loss on my 3-years old 488 would have been about 15%. Which is in-line with the pre-2015 situation.

 

Damn, when did this place turn into the Rennlist GT3 forum.

 

lol

 

Who knows who cares. I’ve repeatedly said I’ve lost my ass on my 488. I’ll likely lose my ass on the 720.

Last I checked I spent 50k on my last vacation with the extended family- that’s money I’ll never get back. Talk about depreciation. But memories for a lifetime.

I’ll enjoy the hell out of my new car and when it’s rime to sell I’ll ***** and moan about depreciation and then realize you dummy- if you cared so much about losing money, should have not bought the car in the first place.

These aren’t investments. You are gonna big obe, you are gonna get hurt. Ferrari was supposed to break the mold- yet I just drove a 393k 4 year old f12 that some one wants to sell for 235k. 4K miles.

For that- should have put 14k miles on it and sold it for 230k.

ipse is right- drive the damn thing and enjoy it to get your moneys worth.

 

Well I suffered a big depreciation on my new Cali T HS but I enjoyed it very much. It cost me $65k to drive it for a year with a $240k msrp which I paid but got a couple of dealer added options worth $5k thrown in to sweeten the deal. I got $175k in trade for it after a year on my new 2018 488 Spider which has turned out to be a really good deal. I paid $10k over msrp for my Spider with 105 miles on it and it's not egregiously optioned. The 488 Spider was the car I wanted but in 2017 they were still priced at a premium and there weren't many to choose from. So instead I tested the brand out with the Cali T HS and wasn't disappointed.

I wanted a sports car but I like the drop top so only the 488 Spider meets the requirement for me in the Ferrari lineup. The Cali T HS was the culmination of all the Cali experience over a 7 year life cycle and it's definitely a great car, the best of the Californias IMO. I think the 488 Spider is the culmination of the Ferrari V8 models and I don't feel bad owning a 2018 even if it's sort of near the end of the cycle. I am glad I have been able to experience the car without paying a massive premium. Now maybe I will suffer depreciation but it won't be the loss of a massive premium paid and I don't think it will be that much depreciation either. In the meantime, I certainly enjoy driving the car.

If you worry about losing money, don't buy the cars.

 

Well that’s just it....
We all want to say drive and enjoy the cars, but we all also want to minimize getting hurt with depreciation. I’ve learned my lessons 3 times over with 3 Astons - talk about getting killed. I bent over 3 times. Did I enjoy the cars, hell yea! But I ain’t gonna get that raped again, ever.
So after that, I’m at the point where I want to have fun and enjoy a car but not get killed in depreciation.
In the end, it’s a balance. If you can enjoy and get hurt the least then great. But I don’t want to burn $ anymore - I ain’t that rich

I know you don’t wanna hear anymore crap from others about losing $ but we’re all in the same game. We’re all passionate addicts for fast metal. Game on!


Sent from my 16M

 

3x's...well I won't go there

But you are spot on. It really comes down to buying right on the front end. If one pays sticker on a new car, you are going to get killed if you keep it a year. Most people won't take the effort to call around at the right level of dealerships and make deals happen--not just local. Pick up the phone and call the other coast. I'll skip the confetti unveilings at the dealership, to have the truck unloaded at my front door without the pomp and circumstance--for a nice discount.

My Urus is incoming and I got a nice discount when no other dealer would discount a red cent. Same with my Performante. Deals can be had, just have to put in the elbow grease. Now on Aston's you can't win no matter what you get off on the front end

Buying new there is always a price of admission, it's just mitigating on the front so the exit doesn't hit you on the way out.

 

There are two identical 2018 white spiders at Newport Beach Ferrari each with 150 miles. Clearly they were dealer ordered cars and they are well optioned so dealer is asking $360k which is probably a $25k premium to MSRP. Nice cars, I bet they could be had for MSRP.

 

The issue with the 488 depreciation is that the 458 with very low miles (and high options) can be had for 210-240 depending on your choice of coupe or spider and options. Most people prefer the NA engine especially now that it's gone so the 458 market is still super strong. I personally like both for different reasons but between the two, most would spend less and get a 458 which, to the non-car person just looks like a nice new ferrari. Someone above said that people buys them for the status symbols and it's true. That's another area where Mclarens have gained in exactly that - people have started to realize mclaren is an expensive brand - so more and more are heading that way for their status symbol purchase (those doors help). Although supposedly their gains is from taking away porsche customers. I don't care how you view the brand regarding depreciation but after owning one, I know they're amazing driving cars.

All in all, I think we are living in a great time where people can make some really great new or slightly pre-owned purchase of these amazing cars. I don't think you can go wrong - buy it and enjoy it. I hope one day we can get whichever car we want without a 50k (or 150k *cough* porsche) markup. Lamborghini did it right with the Performante - an amazing car that you can walk into a dealership and actually buy without any bs.

 

I love the red one they have there. I was in the market for a 458 but....it's tempting.

 

I'd be curious to learn this data.

 

Congrats on the Perf and Urus!

We do know that Ferrari limited models definitely hold the most value (458S, SA, TDF, etc.). But.....There is always a price for admission. Buy the Lusso to get an allocation for blah, blah. Dealer games.
So I don’t mind buying in the secondary market to search for these cars.


Sent from my 16M

 

Maybe it works differently in the US but I bought a Lusso (which I really wanted, and for good reason) long before they offered me a Pista Spider (or before it was even discussed as a model). The dealer didn’t ask me to buy another Lusso and I have never bought a Cali T or a Portofino and they didn’t ask me to do that either. They already had my business. So surely people can at least consider the possibility that Ferrari try to ensure the most sought after cars go to the most loyal customers however that is defined and the dealer is only trying to make sure a customer who calls in saying he wants a P or PS or whatever is told how he can do that? They are not flooding the market with Lusso - it is by far the smallest production of all the F cars, about half of the quantity of 812 and about 1/7th the amount of 488 - and here the Lusso is holding value much better than FF did.

The only people talking about making profit on rare Ferraris are speculators. Real customers know that buying multiple Ferraris loses money - less than other brands, which is exactly why everyone argues about how difficult it is to get cars and Ferrari need to play “games”, something which I am personally in favour of because at least there is an orderly system. Ever stood in a French ski lift queue? Yep, an orderly system is definitely better. Those multiple Ferrari customers that I have met, most of whom have been at it longer than me, simply see this period as “we might do alright for a bit” but know full well there may come a period when more money is lost to indulge their passion. This is because they like Ferrari, will buy Ferrari even when the speculators are doing something else and know that with the Ferrari ‘system’ the cost of owning the brand is more reasonable than for other competitors and their buying history will be respected. Small wonder Ferrari works hard to look after these people.

Perhaps FNA have less disciplined dealers, but if that is the case it won’t last for long because it is 100% in Ferrari’s interest to make sure long-standing customers who are not simply fair weather friends get the cars they want. This is because they are genuinely loyal, they use their cars and order repeatedly. Often low mileage cars on the showroom floor belong to these VIP customers. They own most of the range, don’t have enough time to drive them all and turn the ones they like less over quicker. One guy ordered a Lusso T, never picked it up because he couldn’t bear to stop driving his 60k mile FF. Car will probably have been sold with delivery mileage to a second owner. Maybe even someone who then posted on a forum that Ferrari are producing too many....what a great deal I got....car must have been owned by someone who only bought it to get a Pista allocation.....

 

Ahah that's awesome, the number of private collections wich can compete with yours is reducing dramatically each day !

I'd love to see some pics of the next arrivals (Divo, Fxxk evo, the three above, pista spider ) when they arrive

 

My take on this is quite simple.

If you plan on having the newest toy every two years, of course you will lose money whenever you trade it in.

If you plan on having the best toy for a very long time, and you don't care if your definition of its being the best applies to other people, then the concept of depreciation should not really bother you.

But overall, what is the point of having a toy and not play it because you are afraid of it losing value? Of course, you have to pay to play. But how much you are willing to pay to play is really multifactorial, right? 50K loss in a year could be very differently to many people, so I really don't think the brand itself is the exclusive factor here.

I don't like my desire to enjoy the drive be deterred by the idea of how much I am going to lose. Heck, if I really worry that much about it, I should not have bought it in the first place.

I know it's a paradox. Same thing about watches...we don't buy it for time telling right? (even casio g shock has limited production that cost several thousands dollars whereas one can buy a g-shock in walmart!)

Having said all that, what I really loathe is how the dealers play game and prey on our desire to pay to play, notwithstanding how much so-called royalty we have displayed in the past. Ferrari and Porsche dealers are very annoying in my book. I love to hear how Lambo Perf could be bought without any game...I like that. I actually like that.. Maybe I should check it out.