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Dean on Saddam capture: "America is no safer"

Discussion in 'Other Off Topic Forum' started by ryalex, Dec 16, 2003.

  1. ryalex

    ryalex Two Time F1 World Champ
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    What do you think about this? Is he out of it?

    I was at Joe Lieberman's appearance on Hardball last night and Chris Matthews (off the air) was saying he doesn't think it change anything significant about the presidential race.

    Jon Stewart (Daily Show) says the Dems are screwed. Is fake news more believable??
     
  2. JSinNOLA

    JSinNOLA F1 World Champ
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    I am not sure about the presidential race, but as for America being safer I think the answer is obvious.

    If Saddam's capture discourages even one person from turning himself into a walking bomb then troops are effectively safer. The matter of degree of this issue is the only part that is debatable.
     
  3. ty (360mode)

    ty (360mode) Formula Junior

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    i never thought i would be cheering lieberman but his comments re dean were right on. does dean think war is a walk in the park?? no one who supported the war, rep and dem, said it would be easy.
     
  4. PeterS

    PeterS Three Time F1 World Champ
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    I am surprised that the US has yet to see frequent suicide bombings and other terrorist attacks. I feel we are WAY overdue for this sort of activity. For global terrorist to get 'the picture' that their activities are no in vogue, we will have to catch more than just Saddam. We need to get the Bin Laden's of the world and harshly deal with all of the countries that support terrorist groups with weapons, etc. I'm hopeful that there will be a paper trail associated with the capture of S.H. that will lead us to global supporters.
     
  5. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
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    Point of reference, up until 9/11 the biggest terrorist events in US history were perpetrated by US military trained Kook(tm). Timothy McVay.
     
  6. JSinNOLA

    JSinNOLA F1 World Champ
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    Look at these following comments:

    Rep. Jim McDermott, D-Wash., told a Seattle radio station Monday the U.S. military could have found Saddam "a long time ago if they wanted." Asked if he thought the weekend capture was timed to help Bush, McDermott chuckled and said: "Yeah. Oh, yeah."


    The Democratic congressman went on to say, "There's too much by happenstance for it to be just a coincidental thing."


    When interviewer Dave Ross asked again if he meant to imply the Bush administration timed the capture for political reasons, McDermott said: "I don't know that it was definitely planned on this weekend, but I know they've been in contact with people all along who knew basically where he was. It was just a matter of time till they'd find him.


    "It's funny," McDermott added, "when they're having all this trouble, suddenly they have to roll out something."

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    What a jerkoff...
     
  7. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    If the Dems run Dean they will suffer the biggest defeat since McGovern.
     
  8. ART360

    ART360 Guest

    I don't think so. There are a lot of Islamic people who think that we did them wrong. Invading Iraq just got them more recruits. Another factor is that we are now undertaking wars of conquest, and the stupid public doesn't get it. That attitude change will ultimately cost a good many American lives.

    Art
     
  9. jonesn

    jonesn Formula Junior

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    The stupid public eh? Care to elaborate on that? Are we stupid because we know that the best way to solve a problem is by preemptive means, like anything else in life?
     
  10. MarkG

    MarkG Formula Junior

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    Agree this McDermott guy seems a bit out of it; As far as America being safer w/Saddam in custody, I do think our troops will be safer. Not so sure about America as a nation, Iraq doesn't have ICBM missles, nucluar subs or long range bombers, and, it seems, no WMD.
     
  11. karmavore

    karmavore Formula 3

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    A crazy d0uchebag in a pit with a gun and some cash posed a threat to America? Get real.

    Dean's right, Iraq was not necessary and we were brought there under false pretence. The Bushs got more Americans killed than Sadam ever could have (under scrutiny and sanctions).

    That's not to say he isn't a total piece of ****, but we didn't go there over human rights. We went there so we can all enjoy the gas guzzling cars we discuss in the main forum. Admit it.

    Luke.
     
  12. scuderia47

    scuderia47 Karting

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    There were many reasons to invade Iraq. the reasons that the media and government give to us are the reasons that will draw support and will not result in too much controversey. this is not to say that these "public reasons" are necessarily false, but they are just a fraction of the adgenda.

    some people wave the flag, shut their eyes and ears, and ignorantly follow uncle sam.

    others go crazy about speaking out against the war, and want to overthrow the Bush administration becuase they feel that they only have evil intentions.

    both of these camps are extremists. there is a middle road, where the Bush Admin. wants to look good and help people and make other people feel safe.....and theres the other part where they want to have better access to oil, look good, make their wallets fatter, and try to get re-elected.

    you have to be somewhat objective when looking at this situation and not let your emotions or american pride clout the issue.
     
  13. Mark(study)

    Mark(study) F1 Veteran
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    The Arab street seems to have a view of the USA as weak or quitters....or out to do the Arabs harm. (we saved Kuwait, and protected Saudi)

    Do you know how long it took to fix Europe?...one country at a time? Didn't they watch that show over the last 100 years?

    Now we have to drag one broke-ass Arab country after another, kicking and screaming all the way into the 21st century. Its a crappy job, but someone has to do it.

    When you act like a p*ssy, radical arabs take out the twin towers and kill your people. When you act like a Bad-a$$ they complain.

    I like Bush, his action say "let them complain all they want".

    The Democrats all want to hold debates for dozens of years about where to start?

    Bush just said..The sooner we start the sooner we finish. Don't matter where you start.

    We'll get Bin Laden. But we can learn and gain experience in the mean time. Iraq is a world class training grounds for our military. We still haven't figured out how to bust up the bad-lands of Pakistan. But we don't need to sit on our hands while we work on that problem.
     
  14. zjpj

    zjpj F1 Veteran

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    Correct. That's why the Dems coerced Clark into running - because they know it they are stuck with Dean its going to be grim.
     
  15. zjpj

    zjpj F1 Veteran

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    first I will respond to Luke. Single factor analysis is almost never correct. It is as false to say we only went in there for oil as it is to say that we didn't go in there for political and economic reasons at all. But you're the short-sighted one if you think you can only pin it to one factor.

    Another point I'd like to make: There's a lot of bad stuff that goes on in the world and limited means to take care of it. I absolutely hated hearing arguments from anti war people about how there were other places that also needed attention like North Korea or places in Africa or whatever. Yes, of course that's true, and it would be wonderful if America had enough money to sort out everything. But they don't, and so some sort of selection has to be made, and of course we are going to make those selections keeping in mind our interests. Saying that we shouldn't go to Iraq because there are other places we need to deal with too is like saying that we shouldn't hand out medicine unless we can give it to EVERYONE who is infected - stupid. A good deed isn't negated by the fact that there are other good deeds to get done.

    And, moreover, good outcomes aren't negated by motivations. Hypothetical: I really love this girl, but can't think of a way to get her to talk to me. I know that she is really into community service. SOLELY to win her favor, I go out and do a ton of community service. I end up getting the girl, which I did for totally selfish means. Does that make the efforts to which I devoted my service any less deserving? Does that make their effects on the community any less beneficial? Surely not.
     
  16. maranelloman

    maranelloman Guest

    Dean is, IMO, a no-ideas position-du-jour cretin.

    McDermott, who previously visited Saddam in Baghdad & kissed his arse, is commiting borderline treason, IMO. And if not, is laughably insane at best.

    And Luke, if it were about oil, my bitter, bitter little friend, wouldn't it have been far easier & cheaper to drill in Alaska than to invade a country? LOL! I will grant you this, however: removing Saddam, and theoretically stabilizing Iraq over the long-term does help us oil-wise in that (a) he will no longer be able to threaten the rest of the Mideast oil countries and (b) it may give us an alternative to our terrorist-funding "friends" in Saudi Arabia.
     
  17. Kds

    Kds F1 World Champ

    Did anyone here see Dean's face in the same way I did on the press conference ?

    He looked like he had been hit in the of head with a Lousiville Slugger #5. Demoralized...beaten....and lost. Another left wing talking point was taken off the table.

    Art355's response has shown the true colors of the liberal/progressive left wing.
     
  18. teak360

    teak360 F1 Veteran
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    Does that mean I get the Ferrari dealership in Bagdad?
     
  19. Slim

    Slim Formula 3

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    It's also pretty much what our own CIA has been trying to get the Bush hawks to understand since before 9/11.

    Here's a lesson I learned in Jr. High. There was this ******* named Scott who was always giving me ****. One day I couldn't take it anymore so I preemptively took a step forward and slammed him into a brick wall. Did that teach him a lesson? No, he just went more underground messing up my bike, and even slashing the tires of my mustang in high school.

    No one, nor no country, has the resources to watch the bad guys 24-7. And we certainly can't catch them all and lock them up (and that would just breed more anyway). In this day and age when one "homicide bomber" can kill thousands with a bomb, the force of our military WILL NEVER be a deterent. That strategy was fine in the past when one person couldn't kill more than one other person at a time, but those days are well behind us.

    The only way to keep people from attacking us it to either buy them off with kindness, or buy them off with cash.

    -Slim
     
  20. ryalex

    ryalex Two Time F1 World Champ
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    "Stupid public" from the party that is for 'the people?' Reminds me of my leftist/democratic professors who either secretly or openly disdain 'regular people,' especially people who would watch NASCAR and/or shop at WalMart (if they have a representative group, like politicians say nowadays).
     
  21. JSinNOLA

    JSinNOLA F1 World Champ
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    "Here's a lesson I learned in Jr. High. There was this ******* named Scott who was always giving me ****. One day I couldn't take it anymore so I preemptively took a step forward and slammed him into a brick wall. Did that teach him a lesson? No, he just went more underground messing up my bike, and even slashing the tires of my mustang in high school."


    Ok, then what about someone if constantly violates their parole? Saddam broke his Gulf War "parole" many many times in the past 12 years. Do you think we should just let him go free on his merry way?
     
  22. zjpj

    zjpj F1 Veteran

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    This is exactly the kind of response that I was trying to attack. It's completely ridiculous, Slim. If we can't get them 24-7 and lock them ALL up, then there's no point in getting some of them? OF COURSE NOT! It's another lesson you should have learned in middle school - if you can't get an A, is the alternative to fail? Of course not. So why does the fact that we can't get every terroritst in the world mean that we shouldn't get some of them? Please respond to that question.

    As for your last suggestion, I fail to see how that could possibly translate into any legitimate foreign policy. Frankly, it seems pretty ridiculous.
     
  23. Kds

    Kds F1 World Champ

    Slim.....

    American military might is not a deterrent.....in this you are correct as Clinton so succintly pointed out in his 8 years of presidency and Carter in his 4 years.

    American political will to use those weapons is the deterrent.

    In WWII we almost managed to totally eliminate the entire Japanese and German populations before they got the message. Today they are like little lambs as a result. You would have preferred Chamberlain's approach I imagine. Did you fail history in school as a result of your emphasis on home economics?

    Offence intended.
     
  24. Nibblesworth

    Nibblesworth Formula 3
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    Maciavelli said it best:

    When you defeat an enemy, there are two options, and only two, that will ensure your safety in the future. Option 1 is to completely annihilate your enemy so that there is absolutely no way for him to retailiate. Option 2 is to befriend your enemy after defeat and shower them with love and reconstruction so that they don't want to to attack you in the future.

    Although there are a lot of kind and happy people in the world, the majority of the leaders, and sons of leaders, are not kind and happy people, and unless they are completely demolished, they will always seek revenge.

    Will terrorists continue to attempt to attack the US? Of course they will. But we can either smile and bend over while they f*k us in the butt, or we can bend them over and f*k them ten times harder than they f*ked us.

    I prefer option 2, and apparently Bush does as well.
     
  25. Slim

    Slim Formula 3

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    No one said we shouldn't try to get terrorists. It certainly makes sense to stop active terrorists, cut off their supplies and financing (saudis). Be more careful with visas and guarding our borders and so on.

    But I feel a full on military invasion just breeds more ill will. Attack active combatants, not a whole nation that wasn't presently involved in terrorism (according to our best intelligence).

    I just believe that it is possible for us to "all get along". I don't believe that it is our sense of freedom granted to our own citizens on our own lands that enrages islamic militants. It is our actions in their part of the world. I don't think it would take much change to radically reduce the amount of hate felt towards us, therefore reducing the recruiting power of the islamic extreemists and therefore reducing terrorism.
     

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