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Definition of "favorable" in a PPI

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by benedict, Aug 10, 2017.

  1. benedict

    benedict Formula Junior

    Nov 6, 2003
    731
    Full Name:
    Ben
    Good morning, I'm putting a deposit down on a 2001 360 Spider, 22k miles, just had major service. Seller is local, we have mutual friends and he has a great rep. Of course my offer is still contingent on a "favorable" PPI. How do we define "favorable" so as to avoid potential disputes. Thanks!
     
  2. surfwolf

    surfwolf Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 14, 2012
    554
    Portland, OR
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    Michael Wolfe
    First in my eyes would be a Pumpdown/leakback check, all cylinders should be + or - 5% if perfect, or +/- 10% for OK. Next would be clutch life left/used better than 65% - 75%.
     
  3. Enzojr

    Enzojr F1 World Champ
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    Dec 12, 2013
    13,808
    West of PDX
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    Tomy
    Have the shop doing the PPI give you a "guesstimate" on repairs for anything that needs fixing/repairing. Anything over $1000 I would use as leverage to adjust the price down.
    When I bought my 355 (spider) the top only worked with the emergency button :(
    The prior owner claimed it would only cost a couple $100 to fix it ;)
    We went back and forth a bit on this one, he had spent close to $25 K in 3 years of ownership. A major, new exhaust system and modular wheels.
    He was an attorney, and after much debate I said.
    " From my side of the street if it only cost $200 to fix it you would have already done the repair"
    He lowered the price another $1000.
    I highly suspect his wife said, something has to go ......you or the car.
     
  4. daveyator

    daveyator Formula Junior

    Jun 10, 2014
    288
    Yucaipa, CA
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    Dave B
    I (we) have beaten this to death on other threads. Look for insidious but expensive things. Does it shift correctly? Window and door problems. What exact things were done on the major service and how was the service done itself (did they replace bearings when they did the belts, etc)? CEL light history (common in these cars). During my 20K mi service car was found to have sagging engine mounts and broken transmission mounts. Things I doubt I did in 3yrs and 6000mi (of course you have to take my word on that I drive the car normally). My seller has a great rep also. I wound up with a very expensive car.
     
  5. bigodino

    bigodino F1 World Champ
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    Apr 29, 2004
    10,855
    The Netherlands
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    Peter den Biggelaar
    If you pay for the PPI, you decide what's favorable to you. No need to make it any more complicated.
     
  6. Zanny1

    Zanny1 Formula Junior
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    Dec 19, 2003
    516
    Fountain Hills, Arizona
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    Mike
    I believe there is a 360 PPI checklist somewhere here on FC. A quality PPI should catch any major concerns a prospective buyer would have. The leakdown check is IMHO the most important. When I had a PPI done on my '99 Modena 6 speed 2 years ago, the results were quite thorough. Needed motor/trans mounts, major service - belts and WP, brake pads, tires (10 years old)........ but the car drove like new and was cosmetically near perfect. Leakdown was <5% all cylinders. Bought the car, spent about $9K to do everything. It's a keeper.
     
  7. Ron328

    Ron328 Formula 3
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    Mar 10, 2003
    2,478
    Oregon
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    Ron
    I guess I was lucky and had a "favorable" ppi 3 years ago with my 360. Was done by Salerno in Sacramento. Clutch and brakes found to be worn and fixed as part of the deal. Pass forward 3 years, I have had no repair bills (but I know that time will come). It was a well-spent $350.
     
  8. wildcat326

    wildcat326 Formula 3

    Dec 10, 2012
    1,589
    Chicago, IL
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    Justin
    A PPI should hopefully ferret out latent items that might not be readily obvious to a non-expert. Is the frame damaged, is the motor functioning properly, are there computer error codes, etc.

    360s are notorious for throwing off computer error codes, so you'll want to see what - if any - come up there. Otherwise, dealbreakers would be structural damage or any critical parts being in imminent danger of failure or requiring rebuilding (motor, trans). Wear items needing service - like belts, clutch, brake pads, fluids, tires, etc - can be negotiating points but aren't necessarily dealbreakers or even unexpected on a car that gets driven. There is some school of thought that a leakdown test isn't necessary unless you first get an unfavorable compression test, as the leakdown is used to determine where/why you're losing compression. Strong compression generally = healthy motor. Other than the motor/trans, pricey items can be F1 hydraulic pumps, convertible top actuators, burned out cats and cracked/worn headers (more common with 355s).

    In other words, usage wear, or the need for routine service - or even a "major" service - doesn't necessarily constitute an "unfavorable" PPI. Damage or mechanical failure does.
     
  9. TheMayor

    TheMayor Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Feb 11, 2008
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    Vegas baby
  10. benedict

    benedict Formula Junior

    Nov 6, 2003
    731
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    Ben
    thanks guys, this is very helpful!!
     
  11. Rory J

    Rory J Formula Junior
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    May 30, 2006
    826
    WA
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    Rory
    This. Do you need to put a deposit on the car before the PPI? Any deposit should have be 100% refundable until a date worked out between you and the seller -- maybe 24 or 48 hours after the PPI's conclusion.

    And as others have said, the PPI is only a guarantee that there will be additional issues beyond whatever the shop turns up. Even the best shop won't find every little thing or be able to tell the future.
     
  12. Bob in Makiki

    Bob in Makiki Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    May 30, 2017
    357
    Honolulu
    Ben: The best language for you is, ". . . . favorable, in Buyer's sole discretion."
     
  13. davemqv

    davemqv F1 Rookie

    Aug 28, 2014
    2,913
    USA
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    Dave
    +1 on both of these thoughts.

    It's what you're comfortable with. I have a large threshold for wiggle room on PPI's ,personally. I expect an old sports car to need work, and I think it's unreasonable to expect the seller to absorb all of that. On a car that looks like it doesn't need anything, I still budget 10k over what I'm paying the seller for what I'm "buying" the car for in my mind, so to speak. For me that means the magic number for PPI findings works out to about $5k. That still leaves me another 5k for surprises the PPI missed. Over that I'd probably try and renegotiate a bit.

    But as Mayor says, even with a perfect PPI it could develop a problem next week. No guarantees in life...especially with old Italian cars. :)

    Good luck!
     
  14. anunakki

    anunakki Five Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Oct 8, 2005
    50,063
    Las Vegas Nevada
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    Jerry
    My feeling is the following need to pass the PPI

    - Compression
    - Transmission
    - Electrical

    Anything else i go in expecting to have to fix it at some point in the near future.

    If Im buying a $100k car I put aside $20k for repairs.
     

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