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Difference in 512, 512M, & TR bhp

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by gabriel, Feb 11, 2004.

  1. gabriel

    gabriel Formula 3

    What *exactly* was done to the TR engine to bump it from 390bhp to the rated 428bhp in the 512, and then further to that to bump it to 340bhp in the 512M?

    I've only read general articles on the subject, and I'm wondering how that HP increase was enginnered.
     
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  3. henryk

    henryk Formula Junior

    Dec 9, 2003
    479
    Door County, WI
    The 512 TR has a pulsed FI system, vs the CIS system used in the testarossa. One can better control fuel delivery, and add more fuel precisely when needed.........thus allowing for more hp. That is why the biggest gain in hp came with the 512 TR. The smaller gain of the 512 M shows a refinement of the pulsed system.
     
  4. ENZOFORZA

    ENZOFORZA Karting

    Nov 3, 2003
    122
    DUXBURY, MA
    Full Name:
    JAKE
    the TR used a Mirelli Ignition with a C/R of 8.8:1 for about 390 HP
    The 512 went to Bosch and bumped the C/R to about 10:1 fr 428 HP
    The 512 M used the Bosch also but bumped Compression to 10.2:1 and added Titanium Con rods to gain another 12 HP + get 440 HP. I have heard that although the 512 M has only 12 Hp the Lighter internals make a big difference in getting into the high RPM's quickly. I have never driven one myself, but I hope to get one (along with a F40) someday. I dont know how crazy I am about the 512M Rims though. Check out www.redheaded.com for more specs on all 3 cars.
     
  5. ENZOFORZA

    ENZOFORZA Karting

    Nov 3, 2003
    122
    DUXBURY, MA
    Full Name:
    JAKE
  6. 512Professore

    512Professore Karting

    Feb 3, 2004
    145
    USA, GA.
    Full Name:
    Brian Strasburg
    I believe the bhp numbers you specified are the Euro numbers. For the US, the Testarossa had 380bhp, the 512TR 421bhp, and the F512M had 432bhp.

    When Ferrari released the 512TR, they were very proud, and said that the car is 80% new. I agree, and it really shows up in the "butt-dyno".

    Specifically, the CIS system was replaced with the Bosch Motronic 2.7 system, which integrates the ignition and fuel control, which really accounts for the great flexibilty in the 512TR. In addition, the 512TR & M was fitted with a new and longer intake manifold fed by two large airboxes, instead of only one on the Testarossa. New exhaust manifolds were fitted, which allowed the engine to be mounted 50mm lower in the chassis. Larger valves were fitted with revised cam profiles. New forged pistions increased the compression ratio from 9.3:1, to 10.0:1 in the 512TR, to 10.2:1 in the 512M, although the factory sales info says the M's compression ration is 10.4:1 --- go figure. The 512M was fitted with titanium con-rods, lightened crankshaft, different clutch and slave cylinder. I was told that the factory gave the M's cylinder heads a little more attention during the machining process for improved flow, even though the valves and cam profiles are the same as the 512TR's. The M's engine has a reduced reciprocating mass of 14.5kg, which allows it to rev much quicker. The M also has a different(shorter) gear transfer ratio.

    Both the 512TR and F512M respond very nicely to tuning mods. With the things I have done to my 512TR, a friend's 550 Maranello(with Tubi) has a most difficult time in keeping pace.

    Hope this answeres your questions.
     
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  8. CYB

    CYB Karting

    Jan 11, 2003
    84
    Dallas
    I just got back my '93 512TR from an engine out 30k and a Tubi muffler and pre cats upgrade. The difference is significant. I can't believe just the update would make such a great increase in performance.

    Also, a specialist in L.A. said he has seen 440hp on his dyno from a 512TR in total stock configuration.

    Love the car!!!!!!!!!!
     
  9. notoboy

    notoboy F1 Rookie

    Jul 8, 2003
    2,531
    NYC
    Full Name:
    David
    I'm sure someone has asked this before, but is there a way to update or upgrade the TR to the Bosch 512TR setup for an increase in HP?
     
  10. Auraraptor

    Auraraptor F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Sep 25, 2002
    11,442
    MO
    Prehaps a modern distributor-less ignition mapped for the TR? You will not see very significant hp gains though, as the CR is still going to be rather low.
     
  11. Auraraptor

    Auraraptor F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Sep 25, 2002
    11,442
    MO
    What have you done to your TR?
     
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  13. 512Professore

    512Professore Karting

    Feb 3, 2004
    145
    USA, GA.
    Full Name:
    Brian Strasburg
    Omar(Auraraptor):

    Thanks for asking, and perhaps you can tell that I am partial to 512TR's and F512M's. First, I can tell you that the engine internals have not been changed, no turbo's or any of that stuff either. I would presume that you are asking because you have a 512TR and wish to extract more HP.

    Being an engineer and a gear head, plus a passion for Red cars from Maranello, I have spent many hours over the past several years, researching what really makes the Flat 12 engine work and perform. Keep in mind, that the roots of this engine go back to sixties. So with a plan of the mods to perform to the engine, the search for parts began. Some of the parts I wanted/needed were not available, and many of the manufacturers claim that the parts I have obtained are still NOT available. In short, Ferrari and FNA keep things very close to "home", if you know what I mean. I did each modification in solo, so I could determine if it produced the expected gains, then built upon with each change. Of course, my "tricks" won't work as nicely for every type of engine.

    Anyway, I really can't tell you exactly all I have done, as I am now in the progress of augmenting my Hi-end detailing business with Ferrari & BMW tuning. I hope you understand, as I plan to hopefully make some extra cashola with the tuning venture. However, if you, or other people are interested, I can help you out, but it will cost a little $$. I can also ship the parts, and provide detailed instructions on how to install, etc. I plan on doing a "kit" for resale. But, I can tell you, that I have a Tubi installed... that should be elementry to any tuning program.

    From my research, I knew that the factory left another 125hp sitting on the table, and I believe I have reached that water mark.

    FORZA FERRARI
     
  14. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    7,083
    A believable number. Consider an F355/F360 engine makes 108 HP/litre at 8,500 RPMs. We know the flat 12 is completely capable of running at these revs, so you would need about 11:1 compression, 246-252 duration cams (355 runs 16/54 intake and 48/16 exhaust <<could be the other way around>>:: 252I and 248E) and the intake and headers tuned for 8,500 RedLine instead of the 7,800 RedLine Ferrari let out the door. This implies that 5.0 litre engine in F355 tune should be able to produce 540 HP at 8,250 RPMs if the intake and exhaust systems are working correctly. With a little leaning on the emissions levels (e.g. pass sniffer but not to government regs) maybe even a little more. A lot of parts to change, however..........

    Please show dyno graph; without dyno, its just smoke and mirrors.
     
  15. 512tr

    512tr Formula Junior

    Feb 6, 2004
    336
    montreal
    Full Name:
    tony
     
  16. 512tr

    512tr Formula Junior

    Feb 6, 2004
    336
    montreal
    Full Name:
    tony
    Hi Proffessore,

    What are some of the changes you have done to your 512tr and what kind of extra power are looking at.

    Thanks in advance
     
  17. WILLIAM H

    WILLIAM H Three Time F1 World Champ

    Nov 1, 2003
    34,891
    Victory Circle
    Full Name:
    HUBBSTER
    Sounds realistic, Ive had my 512TR road car on a shock dyno that said she ws making 460 hp at the flywheel & I have minor mods but my engine has been nicely broken in by many, many track miles. I see no problem in going over 500hp, maybe even approaching 600 with normal aspiration. At 500 reliability should be pretty good. Over that and I'm not sure.

    On my race 512TR all we have done so far is install a Motech ignition system, of course the car has zero mufflers or cats :) & she makes 470 hp

    The weakspot on the TRs as with most Ferraris is the transmission

    So Professore what are you doing about the transmission issues ? I have heard that if the gears are all coated in teflon it helps quite a lot
     
  18. gabriel

    gabriel Formula 3

    This has become a great thread on relative merits, and increasing HP.

    Exactly why I visit this forum. :) :)

    I didn't remember that the early US versions had only an 8.8 compression ratio.
    That seems low enough for a moderate boost turbo setup to be feasible without replacing the pistons...
    I had a design in mind when I thought the cr was 9.2, but shelved it due to the trouble finding lower compression pistons, but if I could find an extra hundred or so HP without that hassle - it might be interesting.
     
  19. 512Professore

    512Professore Karting

    Feb 3, 2004
    145
    USA, GA.
    Full Name:
    Brian Strasburg
    William H.,

    Actually, I am not really concerned with the "gearbox issues", as you asked. From my understanding, the only real "weak link" in the gearbox is the main shaft, and not the gears themselves. The "issue" may arise when doing burnouts, or real hard launches with hot sticky tires on grippy pavement, as the entire power of the engine is driven through the main shaft, and as a consequence, the main shaft can twist, which does mess up the entire gearbox. So, for that reason, I have never done a hard launch on street tires or DOT track type of tires.

    To help minimize any potential gearbox problems, and to aid overall efficiency, I have used a good synthetic gear lube since owning the car. I would imagine, if you coated the gears in teflon as you had mentioned, that would screw up the internal tolerances somewhat.

    However, with the F512M, Ferrari did increase the diameter and change the shape of the main shaft in the M's gearbox. IF you are thinking that the M's main shaft will fit in the 512TR's gearbox, so sorry... it WON'T.
     
  20. WILLIAM H

    WILLIAM H Three Time F1 World Champ

    Nov 1, 2003
    34,891
    Victory Circle
    Full Name:
    HUBBSTER
    I had a gearbox explode on me last year at the FCA national at Sebring, It was the planetary drive that looked like a shark took a bite out of it. It happened just as I was coming out of a turn and I went to full throttle. It wasnt a burnout but I was on slicks.

    Since then I purchased an M box & installed that

    I got the Teflon idea from the NASCAR guys. One of the Petty's said his mechanic covered the dear diff gears in Teflon and accidently forgot to put oil in. Not only did the diff not overheat or explode but Petty won the race :)
     
  21. 512Professore

    512Professore Karting

    Feb 3, 2004
    145
    USA, GA.
    Full Name:
    Brian Strasburg
    Real sorry to hear about your gearbox coming apart, or exploding as you said. That certainly must have been a nasty surprise that nobody needs. You know, anything mechanical can break at any time. Did you ever determine what the root cause of the breakage was ??

    When you mentioned covering the gears with Teflon, yeah, the NASCAR boys do have some cool tricks up their sleeves, but I thought you were referring to the 1st-5th gears, not the ring and pinion, as that is a slightly different animal/application. Nontheless, modern lubricants have come a long way since the days of Petty.

    When I had the engine out major service done, I said why not also go through the gearbox and double check everything, so it was thoroughly inspected/re-assembled and blue printed. Good thing, as during the inspection process, first gear was found to have "pitting" in it, probably from the factory, so it was replaced. Perhaps your planetary gears also had a small flaw, and under the stress, it finally gave at the weakest point.

    Keep the RUBBER SIDE DOWN....
     

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