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Discussion in '206/246' started by JF308, Jul 26, 2014.
Great detective work!
for me looks like #01628 (as #01626) left Ferrari factory with standard Cromodora rims 6,5 x 14 as stated in the delivery paper "Rimesso" posted by you earlier in #11… it says five wheels 14 /6 1/2
Kind of you to say but alas, solid answers still evade me. In time, with enough debate and close study of evidence at hand, maybe answers will come. In the mean time the best we can do is keep sorting the pepper from the flyshlt and dots on the paper and see if there is a bread crumb trail left over that makes sense.
All ideas and suggestions must be viewed, looked at and debated as if they are the answer, and then see how they fit into the myriad of evidence at hand. Eventually one throws enough stuff at the wall, something is bound to stick! This type of forensic research is what I have found interesting since I started restoration work on old race cars back in the early 70's. Back then actual answers were far easier to come up with only because the evidence was far fresher and memories of those near the subject cars, far more vivid and certain. The one rule that has shown itself to apply every time, never rule out a possible explanation, some part, or the entirety of it will somehow fit into the actual answer, if that answer is ever actually proven.
My starting point with this car is its "something different" in a run of standard cars, that being about the only sure thing in the equation at this point. I have no less than 2 dozen potential scenarios noted so far, some combination of those will likely prove out one day. The fun part on this one, I don't care what the answers really is, only that the answer is identified. I know it wasn't a race car, evidence bears that out clearly. Was it a failed Chinetti plan to campaign a pair of cars? Was it simply a market study on potential body modifications? Was it simply some noodle bender on the assembly line mucked up a fender and this was the result? There is yet to be enough evidence uncovered to answer the questions with any degree of certainty.
DGT and Lasse threw out statements that resulted in 5 different potential scenarios being added to my list, it changed my train of thought long enough to view things from a different angle when he pointed out a discounted price and then an add on, bringing the price closer in line to a std car, and the idea of who orders a radio on a race car? This changed my thinking towards... Donald was never looking for a "Race Car" as evidenced by his correspondence on March 3, 71, he was looking for a bare bones Dino with 'maybe a radio', hardly a quest to obtain something 'special', nothing in his typed letter suggests that was his mindset at the time. It appears like there is merit to the suggestion that he was swayed towards something that would be hard to sell in a regular retail sale, but easier to off load to a couple of Luigi's friends wanting a Dino.
You made the statement we have to "see the build sheet and do more digging", no truer words have been written to this point! Matthias seconded that with his pointing out wheel specs noted. Rule #2 in forensic research, never trust a build sheet to be word by word correct out of Ferrari, it never happens if the car in question is anything out of the norm. Our tendency is to always pick and choose specific details that support a storyline we want to prove... and that study technique is always flawed when real answers are sought. To that point, the build sheet also shows it "Competition" and with MPH spedo, both of these points either entirely wrong or..... partially wrong. From hard evidence we can see it never got a roll bar, and it (at least currently) has Euro gauges on a Euro car.
The one scenario that is rising up the list of the potential storylines... Luigi was planning a NART campaign with a pair of Dino's in 71, so a pair of cars on the assembly line got Flares for wider wheels in 'hopes' a budget could be found to support that campaign. Cash flow at that time was miserable for Luigi, a racing budget (worse yet for a Dino) was Not a foregone conclusion at the time, and the plan got mothballed before it got started. This at least partially follows the family storyline passed down by Donald to his children, and could explain why a pair of cars was changed in the middle of a normal production line... but there is little else than a story to support that story... at this point.
Just to note it while its still fresh in my head... this aging thing is not all what it is made out to be!
DinoGTS started an interesting thread several years back. I remember it because I was doing research on another Dino at the time and found the debate quite interesting as I too noted what he found in the parts book with the staggered sizes of Campagnolo wheels but had never seen them available or on any car. https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/campagnolo-6-1-2-wheels-is-this-correct-and-other-wheel-questions.468329/#post-143537080
In the mid 80's I spent the better part of a summer in negotiations to take over the North American importing of Borrani, Campagnolo, Cromodora, Tecnomagnesio, MiM, (and a few other off shoot wheel companies that were thrown into the "package"), when I was with World Ferrari. At the time we were actively campaigning an impressive gaggle off Bob's Vintage Ferrari collection and were constantly tearing the centers out of the wheels on 3223GT and a number of SWB's and 250TR that received engine work that might have been a 'wee bit' outside what was considered 'in the Vintage spirit'. It was very clear that having this relationship would be only a PITA (easier to have Ted deal with that!) but might make it easier to get spare Borrani's for the race cars.
Even at that time getting new Campagnolo wheels directly from the manufacturers was near impossible as the name was still active but molds and custom production orders was not yet available and by that time Tecno owned most everything. We were restoring a C&F car for a showing at the Watkins Glenn FCA National and I tried ordering (3) 6.5's and (2) 7.5's Campi's for a test to see how things would work and how receptive they were to odd orders..... nothing, crickets.
Here we have a set of (3) 6 1/2" Campagnolo wheels, doubtful they were available to order at the time, to be installed with in a few months after the factory delivery of the car.... but Never say never. Maybe date stampings will clear that up once the wheels are cleaned
I don’t think it’s unusual for a “gentleman’s” race car to have a radio. Many period “Sports Purpose” equipped Porsches were factory ordered with radios. These were cars where the owner drove them during the week and to and from a race. Probably as we research this, we’ll find the same with vintage Ferraris, Jags, Aston’s etc.
Yahbut.. one word as my kids taught me...
A Panzer is just a panzer, same as a bugeye sprite, transportation first, passion a far distant second.
That said, I have owned and raced both, what does that say about Me?!
Well... now we know the existed....
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The E-series parts catalogue shows 6.5x14 and 7.5x14 staggered Campagnolo wheels as an optional fitment with different part numbers but I don't think many pairs of the 6.5x14 wheels were delivered just based on what folks have said they have. I should check what mine are as I assumed they were all 7.5x14...
Pretty cool! Is there a date code on the back?
This is a super cool thread, but I can not not imagine the Pandora’s box that has just been opened.
I get that but it's only an issue if I had a motive or point to prove. If that were the case I would keep this all secret until I had answers... but its more fun to debate ideas as points of interest are uncovered. I am perfectly happy with what ever it is, we already know what it wasn't. My draw to these old red sleds is the stories that go with each, even more to that point, the stories of the families that owned and enjoyed them. This being a one owner car, those stories are easier to collect and to me, are a whole lot of fun to share with those having any interest in that type of thing. Turning over the rocks and trying to put together a logical story line to explain what we find, for me it just adds interest to a task of its restoration. We already know its odd in a number of ways but how and why I do not know. What ever the car turns out to be... so be it, we like it for what we thought it was.
4cam.... Travis was vapor blasting one of the wheels very slowly and carefully yesterday, looking for just that. As of yet we have not found any date codes but there are a lot of layers of paint and grime to go through and this wasn't our days objective. Our days start out with a semi well planned set of goals... and then someone releases the herds of squirrels... and we start looking for faint numbers when we are supposed to be trying to figure out why this has a 206 transmission in it!
dgt.... Agreed, I have not seen them prior and when I tried to order them in the 80's, was told they were not available. Like Matthias, I too thought it might well be a misprint in the parts manual at the time. I have had my backside handed to me so many times by "assuming" I know the answers to this type of thing... in this market one learns to just attach a 'maybe' to unanswered questions and set them aside for another time. Thirty five years later comes evidence they exist but alas, no answers to the questions.... and that's OK, 'maybe' another day.
Given their rarity I "assume" (already knowing that will likely slap me at some point) they were added at the factory and the car delivered that way. That makes more sense than Donald was able to order a set after getting the car home and change out the wheels a few months later in the Spring of 72. "Occums Razor", the simplest explanation is the most likely to be correct... we will see if that can be proved here. I am going to have the family look for pictures of Donald and his wife driving the Dino from its factory delivery and then through Italy and France. One could assume that would be a photo worthy trip....
What I found odd was seeing 01626 having what appears to be stock Cromodora wheels on it in 71. Given the Flares on these two cars, I would have expected to see different wheels to fill up the wells, much like on 01628, even if the fronts are a stock width. We now plan to check the off sets to see if they remained the same of that of the Cromodora's.
I will photo the 6 1/2" next to the 7 1/2".
At least some, if not all of the extra width is on the outside of the rim.
Mark pointed out in our planning meeting that the differences can be seen visually from the outside
I remember FAF in Atlanta had a curbed 6.5" Campy mounted to the wall and used for an air hose reel. Will Habel (sp?) used to sell the Campys. That is where I got my set.
Will Haible, proprietor, Will Haible Ferrari Service.
Digging deeper into odd little mysteries in search of a storyline that makes some degree of sense in the way of an explanation.... Sometimes you simply cant make up a story that is as outside the box as the actual truth proves to be. Throughout the entire disassembly process every odd finding was documented and put on a list of "things to research", a list that grew to be quite impressive.
As I stated earlier, I am a collector of stories, something I feel takes these special cars from a collection of nuts and bolts and makes them into something far more personal when connected with the owners experiences... some of which you simply couldn't make up if challenged with writing a fiction novel!
Fiberglass wheel wells worn through from bottoming of a suspension? On a car used for Rally's and Autocrosses on the back roads in the Colorado Rocky Mountains, one that came with special wide wheels and tires... that isn't a big stretch to explain but WTH, was Donald jumping the car? The center tunnel cracked in multiple places... and that then reinforced with riveted in pieces of an old Colorado license plate?! Even if Donald was playing Dukes of Hazard with the car, how would one damage the interior center console?
As is always the case in these quests, the truth is stranger than fiction and for myself, is what makes a special car into a collection of priceless memories. Worn out and cracked fiberglass and metal, that is easy to fix. So long as the stories leading to what caused it are collected and saved, the patches will take on a life of their own. Questions must be asked in a host of different ways before the answers present themselves... but I think I got to the bottom of the Cause and Effect on this one. Five people in a Dino... yup, that would do it all right, and I am somewhat embarrassed that potential explanation never made it on my "possible's" list
The Roark family had a bit of a family tradition in attending the Long Beach Grand Prix every year. In fact, there was a stretch of 20 years or so when Dad would pack up a girlfriend, maybe the kids, pile them a the car and set out for the greater metropolitan area of Los Angeles. A Roark Road Trip meant getting up at the crack of dawn and hitting the road early to get past the city traffic and out on the open road. The 1000+ miles between Denver and Long Beach was always managed in one day, driving balls out, getting into the hotel by cocktail time. Road weary and slightly buzzed by the shear force of the drive we would stagger out, unfold ourselves, and head for the bar, High-Five’s all around that we did it again, usually in 12 hours or less. It was not unusual for the Dino to take three (sometimes more) persons on this journey across the western deserts. The lucky person in the middle was made “comfortable” by a pillow placed over the hand brake on which to sit with feet positioned on the passenger side. Bent over or slumped for the thousand miles made the trip more memorable. Conversations helped keep the driver (always Donald) and passengers alert for speed traps or law enforcement. Sometimes we’d get a “rabbit” or someone who wanted to race us. If the time and location was right we’d oblige by leaving them in the dust, feeling rather smug.
For years the preferred place to stay was always the Portofino Inn in Redondo Beach. The Portofino became our home for the weekend. Sweet location, great views, hit and miss restaurant, but always a good bar and good times. The commute from Redondo Beach to the Grand Prix was not long and almost always eventful. One time we made the commute with three or four people inside the car and one person riding in the trunk. Another time there were four people inside the car, Dad and his girlfriend Jan, a sister and myself. Dad’s girlfriend was wearing a halter top that day that unbeknownst to anyone in the car became slightly askew during the commute to Long Beach. A car full of boys pulled up next to us, giving us the “thumb’s up” and laughing. We thought they were cheering us on because there were four full-sized adults crammed into the Dino. We gave them the “thumbs up” and laughed back. It was only after the light turned green and we pulled away that we realized that Dad’s girlfriend’s right breast was pressed against the window. I don’t think we stopped laughing until we got to the stands at the race.
Dad knew Mary Davis from back when she used to race and hill climb and always liked to stay at the Portofino Inn for that reason.
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Further insight into the past, just one of those fun little moments during disassembly
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Donald was quite a fan of the Dino's and owned more than one over the years. Around 1973 Donald bought Joy, his wife at the time, 00554 to use as a daily driver, from Harry Bassett, a well known Denver name.
Just some notes being passed back and forth with Denny, in an attempt to correct mistaken entries in the register back in 97
Much to do about nothing, just some fun insight. Transposed numbers are something I think happened with 01626 as well but I am still working that possibility through a bit further
Many years back while researching this car while still in owned by the family, I asked for them to put to print any and all memories they had of their Father's ownership.... simply because that is important to me.
Several years later I am now getting around to inserting each story into a timeline I am putting together on 01628. Some of the stories help me narrow down my beliefs of what the car was... and some not so much. Regardless of where it leads, I am just sharing what was shared with me
In the spring of 1971 my Dad and Joy (third wife) traveled to Italy to pick up the Dino 246 GT from the Ferrari factory; this was about a year after my sister, KXXX, was born, who was left at home in the good care of an employee from my Dad’s office - Joe CXXX and his wife. He ordered the car through Luigi Chinetti Motors. How my father and Luigi met I don’t know, but over the years a relationship had developed between the two of them. I do know that during WWII Luigi had lived with and Italian immigrant family in the Grand Junction, Colorado area. Dad did mention that their friendship began around discussions of the fabulous mountain roads that they both had traveled in the Colorado Rockies. My guess is that many of Colorado’s mountain passes reminded Luigi of the mountain roads found all over Europe. Because of the unique friendship that they forged, a competition version of a Dino 246 GT was offered for sale to my Dad.
Upon arriving at the factory to pick up the car Dad was told, in a mix of broken English and Italian hand gestures, that the car was not ready and that the mechanics were unhappy with some aspect of the car that could not be conveyed through the present communication barrier. Ferrari arranged for my Dad and Joy to stay that night at a hotel near the factory (Hotel Real Fini, in Modena) and bought them dinner at the hotel's restaurant. The next morning the car was still not ready, but my Dad was told that it should be ready by noon. Ferrari had arranged for one of the factory test drivers to take my Dad on a tour of the countryside surrounding the factory to familiarize him with car, but Dad needed to sign a release that the car was now his and that they were no longer responsible for any damage to the car. A further delay resulted in another lunch for Dad and Joy at the hotel's restaurant. I suspect that this restaurant is where Ferrari sent all their patrons, and I imagine that it was a treat for Dad and Joy to be doted on this way.
After lunch, the car was finally ready, and the Ferrari test driver and my Dad headed off for their tour of the countryside. My Dad related to me that he was a bit taken aback at the ferocity with which the test driver was driving the car. (Dad and I believed that in those days the engines were probably broken-in before being installed, or maybe because it was a competition version.) The test driver was hitting redline before every shift and really giving it a work out. As they would pass through a small town, kids would gather at the edge of the road and cheer them on to go faster, with the driver usually obliging their wishes, down-shifting and winding the engine up to redline. This went on for about a half an hour. As they were returning back to the factory, down an undulating country road at 240kph, they approached the crest of a hill and encountered a horse drawn cart up ahead. The driver braked and down-shifted as they approached, then pulled out to pass the cart, only to discover a bus coming at them from the other direction. The driver immediately returned to their lane and began a breaking maneuver that my Dad said “removed his balls from his scrotum, and it was days before they returned.” Under heavy braking they hopped down the road leaving tire marks as they came to a stop inches from the horse drawn cart. This was the beginning of my Dad’s long and endearing relationship with his Dino. True story!
Truly the Holy Grail of Campagnolo Elektrons
In looking for 24 years, I have purchased 4 partial sets of Campagnolos and never have seen a rim size stamping. One set bought from Tom Shiughnessy in 1995 has no "Dino" script in it, but Denny Schue explained that.
DH, your find is very exciting.
Any date codes on the back of the hub, like in my pic?
Algar has the old Chinetti files when they bought Chinetti out.
Try contacting Livio Ramani, he has been at Algar since Dinos were in production, and if you approach him politely I've found things easily accessible.
When we first set out to look for the date codes we had just changed out all the media, water and chemicals in our vapor blast cabinet to do some delicate aerospace sublet test work and decided to post pone further blasting on the wheels until the equipment was just about ready for another clean out... lets just say there is a lot of past 'cosmetics' to remove that accumulated over the years.
Agreed, I have not seen these stampings in the past either but frankly those are some of the small details that I have never paid much attention to over the years, just not my area of focus at the time. That is why I am enjoying the debates and discussions here, I am learning many of those finite details as we proceed and discuss this. We think we can make out similar stampings on the 7 1/2" wheels as well. Once cleaned I will post detailed photos of all markings on them.
I can remember partial sets of Campagnolo wheels laying about in each of Tom's buildings back in that time frame, I went out there to purchase a Miura for a Mpls client and spent a few days 'touring' with Tom. One memory of that trip was a 212, one 1/4" 4x8 sheet of plywood underlayment, two kids bikes and a beach umbrella stacked vertically in his garage at home, 250 engines used as door stops at his building on the coast... fun memories of an enjoyable trip.
We were still campaigning Bob's GTO, SWB's and TdF race cars in the early 90's so my eyes never stopped scanning for 'spares' to keep them race ready. Once my roving eyes found the Messerschmitt KR200... it became the clash of the Titan's in negotiations.... surrounded by all the Ferrari's, priceless parts and a beautiful Miura I spent the morning driving down the coast, it was that micro panzer that became the challenge! A lot came home with me that trip, the KR did not.
Fun side note,
Luigi sent Donald a post card of the 72 LeMans NART race with a personal note on the Dino effort
This lending credibility to there being a personal relationship between the two
Just another odd little detail I had not noticed on prior Dino engine builds...
"Mondiale" stamped on the engine block... or more accurately, "Wondiale" but I assume (there we go again) the 'M' was being held upside down.
No reasonable attempt was made to hold the letters in a straight line and double stampings occurred on a few letters, that giving fair argument to it being an early original stamping.
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The tumbler blaster has been used so hard prepping the hardware for sublet plating, the glass bead has actually worn through the steel plate of the basket. A few hours delay to restore equipment was needed. We found we had far less "misplaced part" issues, a vastly better final finish result and a far quicker turn around at the plating shop, if all the plating prep work was done in house.
Gold and Silver Cad plating shades and reflection amounts can be infinitely controlled by the surface finish of the parts delivered. This allows us to use Cadmium plating... and to a degree, have it look like the lesser zinc plating, but with the longevity we were looking for. Another batch of silver Cad is about ready to go out.
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Plating is the biggest showcase effort on a Dino. You've obviously bumped into these issues and are taking control where you can, great commitment to quality but how often do you go through blasting nossles
Thank you for posting.