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Dino racing engines 1965-1978

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by 246tasman, Dec 8, 2009.

  1. 246tasman

    246tasman Formula 3

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    #1 246tasman, Dec 8, 2009
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    I had a chance to see three different generations of 2 litre Dino racing engine blocks together recently.
    The first (in date order) and the first photo is the block from 206S(P) #006 (2 valve, then later 3 valve), the second (with sump fitted - last photo)) is a 1977 F2 4 valve, and then a 1978 (ex Minardi team) F2 4 valve block shown alongside the 206S block (no mains caps).
    The early engine is a different casting but is very similar to the later F2 ones which use the casting from the Fiat Dino & 206GT road cars. It is obvious that the road engine is absolutely based on the 206S block with small improvements, and the 206S gearbox fits the later blocks as do all the other attached castings. I had previously imagined that there were more differences.
    You can see that the 1978 engine has been extensively stiffened by machining out the stiffening webs in the crankcase and inserting shaped alloy blocks between the block outer walls and the cylinders. I don't have a photo to hand now to show this but the blocks are then heavily welded in place from the outside of the crankcase.
    The 1977 engine doesn't have this stiffening welded in as evidenced by the fact there is no welding showing on the outside of the block.

    I've posted this in Vintage as these are competition engines and some who might be interested may not look in the Dino section.
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  2. bigodino

    bigodino F1 World Champ
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    Thanks for the information. You mention #006 for the 206 S engine block. Do you know what is in s/n 006 today? I've seen it a few years back at Spa and the telaio plate said #006 for the engine. Did not check the engine block itself though.
     
  3. 246tasman

    246tasman Formula 3

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    Actually it was the owner of #006 who brought that block to my place to look at the F2 engines & compare. It is badly cracked right through the main bearings so he had new blocks cast by the factory. I don't know what number the new block in #006 now bears.
     
  4. dinogts

    dinogts Formula 3
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    #4 dinogts, Dec 9, 2009
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2009
    I am curious as to the source for the claimed Dino linkage to the 1977 F2 4 valve and the 1978 F2 4 valve, as Ferrari does not list any Dino family engines (strictly defined as V65° blocks, whether V6s or V12s) from the 1970s other than the 206/246 road cars, the Fiat Dino road cars, and the Lancia Stratos.

    Here I have summarized the Ferrari factory "line" (taken from my posting in response to Scott.Mac's posting in the Dino section about the Dino family of engines) as follows:

    "In connection with the exhibition "V65°" that ran at the Galleria Ferrari di Maranello from March through May, 2001, Ferrari produced a publication, “V65° - L’efficacia di un’idea” (Catalog N. 1686/01) that traces the history and development of Ferrari's V65° family of engines. Ferrari notes that "Dino is the name of a man, an engine, and a make of car." With respect to engines, Ferrari classifies 65° V6s and 65° V12s as being of the Dino family, AND specfically excludes "all the other 'families' with angles of 60°, 90°, and 120°." Thus, the V8 Dinos are NOT of the Dino ENGINE family.

    According to Ferrari, at the time of publication in 2001, the Ferraris in which the Dino family of engines were placed included the following:

    V6 race cars:
    1956 Dino 156 F2
    1958 Ferrari 246 F1
    1958 Ferrari 326 MI
    1958 Dino 296 S
    1959 Ferrari 256 F1
    1959 Dino 196 S
    1960 Ferrari 246 S
    1960 Ferrari 246 P F1
    1960 Ferrari 156 F2
    1961 Ferrari 156 F1
    1961 Ferrari 246 SP
    1965 Dino 166 P
    1965 Dino 206 SP
    1966 Dino 206 S
    1966 Ferrari 246 F1-66
    1967 Dino 166 F2-67
    1968 Dino 166 F2-68
    1968 Dino 246 Tasmania
    1969 Dino 166 F2-69

    V6 road cars:
    1968 Dino 206 GT
    1970 Dino 246 GT

    V12 race cars:
    1989 Ferrari F1-89
    1990 Ferrari F1-90
    1991 Ferrari F1-91
    1992 Ferrari F92 A
    1993 Ferrari F93 A
    1994 Ferrari 412 T1
    1994 Ferrari 333 SP

    V12 road cars:
    1992 Ferrari 456 GT (and variants)
    1995 Ferrari F50
    1996 Ferrari 550 Maranello
    2000 Ferrari 550 Barchetta Pininfarina

    ...."

    Were the 1977 and 1978 blocks originally intended for the Lancia Stratos rally cars?

    Mark
     
  5. 246tasman

    246tasman Formula 3

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    #5 246tasman, Dec 9, 2009
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2009
    Hi Mark

    The 1977-8 F2 4 valve engines probably aren't in that list because they weren't fitted in Ferrari but specifically built for supply to customers. They're well documented and were fitted in Chevron & Ralt chassis for the Trivellato & Minardi/Everest teams. One or two sports racers later used them, one that comes to mind is the Gipsy-Dino
     
  6. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    As an aside Dino Competizione's engine (Typo 231 B) has ACO Le Mans stamps.

    008 in 66?
     
  7. Dino2400

    Dino2400 Formula 3
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    #7 Dino2400, Dec 9, 2009
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    Here a picture of the "Gipsy-Dino" at the Modena Trackdays this year. Did someone take a picture of the engine? From what i remember there was a normal 2-liter engine in it...
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  8. Ney

    Ney F1 Veteran
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    #8 Ney, Dec 9, 2009
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  9. Dino2400

    Dino2400 Formula 3
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    #9 Dino2400, Dec 9, 2009
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2009
    Thank you!

    Looks to me like an pretty "standard" 2-L unit with Lucas injection. Anybody more info on specs?

    .
     
  10. 246tasman

    246tasman Formula 3

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    #10 246tasman, Dec 9, 2009
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2009
    Interesting. there was one advertised with a 4 valve about 3/4 years ago. Were more than one chassis made, or maybe the ad was wrong, or perhaps the 4v has been taken out.
     
  11. Dino2400

    Dino2400 Formula 3
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    #11 Dino2400, Dec 9, 2009
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    At the Nurburgring this car was offered for sale again. Following picture is from the sign on it...

    .
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  12. Ney

    Ney F1 Veteran
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    #12 Ney, Dec 9, 2009
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    I do not know. The only other engine photo that I have is inconclusive, but it appears to be the same car with the same engine, but different intake (likely just screening addded). I thought that only one car was built and was recently sold at the Padova Coys auction - $142,000. attached photo is from Keith Bluemel from 2001
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  13. 246tasman

    246tasman Formula 3

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    Maybe I got it wrong when I first saw the advert or remembered it wrong. Certainly if it's a 1971 car it's too early for the 'customer' 1977-8 4 valve.

    Interestingly the 1969-70 1.6 F2 and 2.4 Tasman 4 valve heads look the same as the Stratos 4v heads and would of course be interchangeable as the iron blocks are similar to the alloy. The only difference I can see to the 77/8 heads is that the exhausts on the latter have 4 studs as opposed to the 2 studs used on the earlier versions.
     
  14. slewman

    slewman Karting

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    #14 slewman, Dec 9, 2009
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  15. dinogts

    dinogts Formula 3
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    The Gipsy-Dino or Dino-Gipsy (or maybe it should be “Gypsy”) is a great looking car. Any idea how much it was for sale at the Nurburgring?

    Does anyone here have photos of the other 1970s era Dino powered race cars such as the Chevron and Ralt chassis cars? How about other spec racers? If so, please post a few . . . .

    Thanks -

    Mark
     
  16. 246tasman

    246tasman Formula 3

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    #16 246tasman, Dec 10, 2009
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    Thanks for this photo. It's interesting to see it's yet a different casting from the 206S & the FIAT road blocks used on the later F2s. Below is a photo of the same side of the 206S block, and the FIAT block side can be seen in the bottom photo of post #1.

    Do you have a photo of the sump casting?

    Does anyone have access to or drawings of the monocoque of the 1969-70 F2/Tasman cars?
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  17. GIOTTO

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    #17 GIOTTO, Dec 10, 2009
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    Paul Owens & Dereck Bennett with the Dino V6 in a CHEVRON chassis. (Photos from AUTOSPRINT magazine (January 1977).
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  18. f308jack

    f308jack F1 Rookie

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    Nice!

    There appears to be very little in terms of webbing on the flanks of these blocks. How rigid are they?
     
  19. vroomgt

    vroomgt Formula 3

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    Here's a RALT

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  20. GIOTTO

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    #20 GIOTTO, Dec 10, 2009
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  21. 246tasman

    246tasman Formula 3

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    #21 246tasman, Dec 10, 2009
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    Who knows? Someone thought they were worth stiffening with the blocks fitted between the cylinders and block walls. Here are photos of the outside showing the bolts and weld holding them in place.
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  22. 246tasman

    246tasman Formula 3

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    Very interesting to see the deep sump which was the cause of Ferrari & Chevron falling out when Chevron made their own shallower version. The engine in post #1 shows a later Ferrari made shallow sump.

    I also have another sump pan (but not finish machined) which is shallower still and incorporates the lower half of the main bearings into the pan which would stiffen the whole block considerably.
     
  23. GIOTTO

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    #23 GIOTTO, Dec 10, 2009
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  24. f308jack

    f308jack F1 Rookie

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    The welded -in stiffeners are interesting to say the least!

    The photo of the Ralt is also very interesting, it appears that the whole engine was deemed rigid enough to make it semi- loadbearing in that chassis. How did it do?
     
  25. slewman

    slewman Karting

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    #25 slewman, Dec 10, 2009
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