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Direct injection on the new F cars. What maintenance are you doing?

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by SSNISTR, Jul 31, 2016.

  1. SSNISTR

    SSNISTR F1 Veteran

    Feb 13, 2004
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    We all know how DI makes nice power, but can cause buildup on the valves. I have read having a good oil change regime with top quality full synthetic, and running top tier premuim fuel with their additives helps. I also know running a catch can (oil seperator) is a very good idea as well. I run one on one of my cars now.

    With that being said, what are you all doing? I hear the dealer of course offers a cleaning service. But not sure what exactly that entails at a Ferrari dealer, or how often they recommend doing it.

    Any input would be great.
     
  2. Future328

    Future328 Rookie

    Sep 9, 2014
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    Curious as well. Does anyone make catch can setups for late model V12 Ferraris? I know you can buy them for Lamborghinis as a friend has one on his after his dealer charged him like $750 to "clean his heads of DI buildup" after only 7500 miles. Seemed like BS to me at that mileage?
     
  3. SoCal1

    SoCal1 F1 Veteran
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    BG upper end cleaning system
    Been using it for year with amazing results
     
  4. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Veteran
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    If there is carbon buildup it would have to be manually cleaned. Not much can be done to prevent it entirely. Even with no pcv you still have a slight amount of oil passing by the valve seal/guide and reversion.

    Only fix in my opinion is to have both a port and direct injector, a method used by some.
     
  5. SSNISTR

    SSNISTR F1 Veteran

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    If say the F car is going to be driven 5000 miles a year, how often would you recommend the dealer "cleaning" service? I would rather be proactive with it. BMW says 30000 miles, as a reference. So, maybe every other year (10000 miles)? Or is that overkill? Or should it be done yearly regardless of mileage?
     
  6. SSNISTR

    SSNISTR F1 Veteran

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    More info on this? Never heard of it.
     
  7. Future328

    Future328 Rookie

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    Is this like a Seafoam? I know you do not want to simply knock off any deposits just to have them fall elsewhere, you want to actually remove them.
     
  8. Rover1551

    Rover1551 Karting

    Aug 12, 2015
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    Goto Bgprod.com and find a distributor near you. You can start with buying a can that you pour in the tank. Carbon deposits go out the tailpipe. I have serviced many customers vehicles over the years without any problems.
     
  9. SSNISTR

    SSNISTR F1 Veteran

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    But the deposits must first pass through the cats...not sure if this is the best method.
     
  10. Cribbj

    Cribbj Formula 3
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    BG Products are some of the best on the market because they actually work. Their coolant, crankcase, and fuel system flushes, and top end treatments are superb.

    They would not market a product that could possibly ruin your cats; the liability would be too great.

    I would use anything they make with confidence.
     
  11. SoCal1

    SoCal1 F1 Veteran
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    Different league all together

    Lots of OEM use BG in dealerships to cure issues

    This is a variation on it, they make a ton of products

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfNTZp6OrQ0[/ame]
     
  12. SoCal1

    SoCal1 F1 Veteran
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    And this

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXCzWGX87BE[/ame]
     
  13. SSNISTR

    SSNISTR F1 Veteran

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  14. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob F1 World Champ
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  15. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Please Mr. Moderator, don't boot my comment. It's not political, just fact.

    I was listening to NPR, and they started talking about direct injection. They had some gal on who teaches at MIT. The expert admitted direct injection gets better mileage, but it also creates, hold onto your seat, more carbon. After a lengthy discussion, the expert said the answer was to make direct injection less efficient so it would produce less carbon. I kept waiting for the host to ask THE question. Namely, if you make direct injection less efficient, then why have it? Sadly, the host never asked the question.

    You can now return to your random Internet musings. :)
     
  16. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    Oh no.. Bringing back memories of my Mini Cooper S....

    Why not occasional methanol injection? Just clean em' off....
     
  17. SSNISTR

    SSNISTR F1 Veteran

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    Blasting huh. Always thought of this being how to fix it, after it was too far gone.

    I was more so curious on how to prevent it from getting to this point in the first place...
     
  18. Tony H

    Tony H Karting

    Sep 3, 2013
    140
    Oh boy, pouring liquid into an engine is playing with dynamite. Consider this, valves not fully closed, liquid gets into cylinder and if the piston isn't at TDC then turning the engine can cause some real damage.

    Saw a reputable TV clip suggesting that a liquid separator on crank case vent helps. http://www.motorweek.org/features/goss_garage/catch-can-oil-separator The buildup on the back of the valves is oil from the crankcase blow-by so try stop it from getting there.
     
  19. Tony H

    Tony H Karting

    Sep 3, 2013
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  20. SSNISTR

    SSNISTR F1 Veteran

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    I have used these as well (as I mentioned in the OP), commonly called catch cans or oil separators. They do work very well, and are easy to install and uninstall. Pretty sure the GT350R's actually come with them from the factory, for only about $100-$150 they are great to have on any engine, even more so one with DI...
     
  21. SSNISTR

    SSNISTR F1 Veteran

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    Yes, but they make it clear in the instructions how to do it, and to have a professional do it...

    Someone told me that they think this is the DI "cleaning/preventive maintenance" method used by Ferrari dealers, but I have not confirmed this.

    I would assume if the car has enough mileage the Ferrari dealer would do a blasting to get it off, but that is much more labor intensive and will cost much more.
     
  22. Future328

    Future328 Rookie

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    IMO a good catch can is the way to go on these new DI engines. As mentioned, they are inexpensive, easy to add (or remove for that matter) and they do their job.

    Plus, like others have said, run top quality synthetic oil, and be diligent about changes and you should be fine.
     
  23. nathandarby67

    nathandarby67 F1 Veteran
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    I wonder if adding a catch can would give dealers a handy way to deny any warranty claims? The only DI vehicle we have is an Audi Q7, I love the idea of adding a catch can but wouldn't want to screw up my warranty. At least with any liquid or aerosol treatment there is no direct evidence you did anything. Something to consider.
     
  24. peterp

    peterp F1 Veteran

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    Hadn't hear of BG before, but seems to be amazing stuff for cleaning before an oil change. Here is a mega thread on the subject from the Pelican parts (Porsche focused) forum -> BG 44K Fuel System Cleaner - Pelican Parts Technical BBS. This thread doesn't talk about direct injection though, it's mostly older cars.
     
  25. maxvonauto

    maxvonauto Karting
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    Most Ferraris use a dry sump oil system and the holding tank already incorporates a vapor separator, usually of much better design than most aftermarket catch cans. Before DI the main goal was to limit oil vapor from entering the intake to prevent detonation. This worked well enough with port injection but even this small amount of blowby oil combined with valve guide seal leakage is enough to cause excessive backside intake valve and port deposits on DI engines. One would think Ferrari would be smart enough to design a system to prevent this, but after inspecting several ferrari DI engines with 30k plus miles I can assure you what I saw was disgusting and most certainly the cause of the performance related customer complaints. No amount of additive introduced through the intake could clean these valves without killing the cats or O2 sensors. Unfortunately Ferrari has no documented procedure for dealing with this issue, probably due to the typical low miles on most F cars. Besides poor general performance, these deposits can cause other much more significant damage. Consider a small chunk of carbon that breaks off and wedges in the valve seat. If large enough the piston can make contact and bend the valve or hot combustion gases can quickly burn the seat. On hydraulic adjusted systems the excessive lash (valve held slightly open) can pump up and cause piston contact or valve spring coil binding. All cases end badly! If you don't want to deal with this problem I recommend that you keep your DI Ferrari under 30k miles. If you already have a high mileage F car it only takes about 15 minutes with an articulating borscope to look at your intake valves. If you live in Southern California I'll check your car for free.
     

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