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Does K n N air filter really work?

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by Circle K, Feb 6, 2021.

  1. janmante

    janmante Karting
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    yes put some in my F430 , felt a slight difference K &N work it is NOT hype
    , you can safely ignore most of the negative comments ! they are WRONG ! scroll on !
    we have used them for 30+ years in EVERYTHING !
    they DO do major R&D and they DO work ! they are real engineers and carefully design and execute ideas to reality
    NO they do not let dirt get past ! And they filter just fine thank you ! better, IME
    IF you clean them (very seldom needed ) DO NOT OVEROIL them or yes you may gum up the MAF that is operator error not the products fault !
    it is easy to clean them ,it just takes bit of time to make sure they are dry before re-oiling them .
    paper filters, K&N competition, are fine when brand new but quickly get dirty and need replacement THEN flow less than K&N
     
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  3. raemin

    raemin Formula Junior

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    #27 raemin, Feb 14, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2021
    Maybe a more nuanced assertion would help... Not so long ago you were considering waterless coolant in your car. Now you promote so-so filters? When tinkering with our cars one SHOULD LISTEN to comments and words of caution made by this community.

    Looking at how well designed are my air-intake I would under no circumstance consider that Ferrari did a bad job. Considering that I have a k-jet with aggressive cam overlap, a cold start valve close to the air-flow sensor, and the fact that Ferrari added a pop-up valve on the air-duct, I suspect that some gasoline gets back to the air-box. This is likely to rinse the K&N oil and make the filter useless.

    Ferrari does provide detailed analysis, bulletin, and workshop manuals. Also Ferrari does not hesitate in recommending better products when the line-up from their official sponsors is not up to the task (eg: Petronas Vs Shell). What I just try to say here, is that Ferrari recommendations are (reasonably) unbiased, so they would not hesitate in recommending K&N if it were appropriate. On top of this some people here do have extensive knowledge on our cars.

    For me this is how I try to educate myself regarding my (vintage) Ferrari: follow all the latest manuals revisions by the book, when I come across a deprecated technology oddity (such as "add 180cc of Molykote A to the AGIP 10W50), then I ask the community on what's the consensus based on the currently available alternatives. So far I've followed most of the advice I've received here. No regret.

    No K&N for me unless someone reports a long term success on the same car as mine.
     
  4. otoupalik

    otoupalik Karting

    Feb 22, 2004
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    Brad Otoupalik
    It is posts like these that are so hard and frustrating to deal with.

    yes, following advice from an educated group is strongly suggested.

    No, following advice from people who don’t have experience, make assumptions* and then post as fact or knowledge is “the blind leading the blind.”

    I have 15 years of experience testing, using and running pleated gauze filters. This was while owning and operating a large well known running shop. We ran race cars, I was chief Instructor at a Ferrari track school, we had a dunk and engineers on staff, had our own race and development program. This included long term testing, oil analysis, engine breakdowns to inspect, etc. Then later in life I spent 2 years running international for K&N. So that is nearly 20 years professional experience with pleated gauze filters (this is not about k&n, as all high quality pleated gauze filters work the same basically). In addition I have 40 years of using them overlapping this time. I have had these filters on our 550 Maranello since 1999. Same filter, cleaned and reused.

    There is documented evidence on Ferrari’s that this type of filter does work.
    There is internet lore that it doesn’t with no supporting evidence other than “someone told me”

    you all can decide for yourself. But circling back to the point of listening to those that may have more experience, it is funny that a few in this thread refuse to do that. Or at least to acknowledge that they may not have a factually based position, but an emotional one (for whatever reason).

    btw, I have yet to see ANY Ferrari air ox that is optimized. Possible on the newest cars as I have not inspected them. But certainly not on anything up to abs including the 458. Sounds like there is documentation to show the 488 also is not.

    also, please don’t fool yourself to think that Ferrari is unbiased. It is ALL about the money. Having spent early a lifetime in the auto industry, I can assure you all car makers are driven by this. Ferrari was less about this a decade ago, but today, it’s all about the Benjamin’s. Ever go to the factory? I have visited 20 years ago, 10 years ago a and last year. You can see the changes in attitude from what Enzo preached.
     
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  5. colorfull

    colorfull Karting
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    I always come here for information, and it is apparently not uncommon to read diametrically opposing perspectives which makes things interesting.

    A trusted friend of mine has been using K&N for years in his many cars and recommended I try one, and I have, on my F430.

    It sounds great, runs great, is much better made than OEM. I was very impressed with it's construction.

    Reading and watching videos about it's filtering capability had me a bit concerned, but as my buddy pointed out, my driving conditions do not expose me to dusty air, etc.

    Based on what I'm reading here, as long as it's used properly, oil shouldn't be an issue.

    Thanks all for the information.
     
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  6. otoupalik

    otoupalik Karting

    Feb 22, 2004
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    Spot on! Enjoy your car!
     
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  8. Snapshift

    Snapshift Karting
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    I used a K&N equivalent filter ( Challenge) which was a STC for aircraft at the time. It ran great but I noticed a significant increase in Silica in oil analyses and ultimately had to do a top overhaul prematurely because of increased ring wear and valve guide wear. I abandoned the K&N use for my aircraft as I felt that it allowed too much particulate matter (dirt) to pass. I converted back to OEM and the silica dropped. Based on my anecdotal experiences, I would never even consider a K&N filter on my F430. FWIW, YMMV They sure have a great advertising campaign though.
     
  9. janmante

    janmante Karting
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    #32 janmante, Feb 15, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2021
    BTW I am Still considering Evans waterless coolant I would be in good company 1.5 million users and as said, NO lawsuits so NO proof of engine damage !
    you must KNOW IF it had a adverse effect there sure would be some litigation in USA ! We have lawyers who will sue anyone or anything for any reason ( and frequently prevail ! LOL )

    As for K&N the filters ? have been in my F430 for 2+ years w/ ZERO issues and DO give a noticeable, performance boost I actually bought them from a prior user as he had them on his F430 but he claimed they "whistled " ! LOL mine has SCUD-style CF air boxes and it sounds great !
    I have 30+ years of experience w/ K&N there is nothing "so -so" about them ! They are Top quality ! and used by racers in all types of disciplines! Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  10. janmante

    janmante Karting
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    #33 janmante, Feb 15, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2021
    Yes sorry I do not find your post credible ( as far as negative effects ) you admit the filter was NOT a K &N but a copy so that is a serious independent variable difference ! not quite apples and oranges level !
    but THANK YOU ! as I DO oil analysis w/ Blackstone oil labs I will look out for any abnormal / increased levels !
    And IF the data shows you are correct ? I will be grateful and admit it ! Post it !
    IME K&N do NOT cause ANY accelerated wear in my 30+ years experience w/ them . And I have never seen that assertion except in anecdotal reports on FC !
    IME they filter VERY well ! ( and we live in the desert ! ) any bad filters would quickly be exposed here !
     
  11. janmante

    janmante Karting
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    we notice on this, FC and other similar forums a tendency to kind of make up negative effects or to confuse opinions as facts ! and my goodness do some get quite emotional and strident !
    Often they border on mere rhetorical, or . ad hominem attacks! follow all the classic argument fallacies I vaguely recall from philosophy class !
    going to have to re-study them so I can label them ( to myself ! ) when I read them ! "Oh ! that's a ..............! LOL
    plus there is a strong purist phenomenon as in "if it is not as it left the factory it is wrong " We were well trained I think, to "question Authority "
    but I DO recall in Academia one is to " defer to the senior researcher ! " LOL
     
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  13. Snapshift

    Snapshift Karting
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    As I said my experience was anecdotal, one man's experience. Your experience might be different.YMMV. I just found it coincidental that the silica would rise in oil analyses, and cause my aircraft engine to start producing significant wear metals at about 1000 hrs on a new engine. The Challenge filter is an aircraft STC'd product made under license from K&N. Performance wise, on my Ferrari how much more performance do I need?? I think K&N products are good but not just for me. I'm not bashing any company or product but just relating what to me was a significant experience, although hopefully that may not be the collective experience of many others., which is great. I see Green Dragon filters are probably the same technology as well. Any experiences on those?
     
  14. 26street

    26street Karting

    Jan 30, 2021
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    Mark k
    Not a big fan of K&N for my cars they might look good but it’s really about keeping dirt out of the engine
    Plus my car and probably yours uses a MAF sensor with a “hot wire” or a “vine” depending on your year and model either way K&N uses oil to block dirt that oil will damage your MAP sensor once your MAP is compromised your fuel trims and mapping will be out of wack and the performance starts to really suck and you will head down the road of the “check engine light “ nightmares so a good Quality paper air filter will be more cost affective in the long run


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
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  15. Snapshift

    Snapshift Karting
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    #37 Snapshift, Feb 15, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2021
    I am glad that you have and are having great experiences with the K&N filters. I wish I had the same experiences but unfortunately, not the case. Maybe the dust particles in the desert are larger. I saw somewhere that the pores are larger on the gauze and if the oil dries out the filtration efficiency is impaired. I don't know however, I had used them on 2 cars and an aircraft, didn't notice much difference in performance, but one car engine (Cadillac Northstar) had oil consumption problems and eventually blew a cylinder (may not be related to the air filter though) and the aircraft engine requiring a top OH at 1000 hrs about half of its expected TBO.( May not be related either). I am happy with the performance of the Ferrari as it is, as there are already enough problems inherent in its ownership that I don't need to add any more problems, especially with the known MAF contamination.
     
  16. Bob in Texas

    Bob in Texas Formula 3
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    The best advice I saw if you prefer to use a K&N or BMC, etc. is NOT to re-oil them. Throw them away and buy a new one.
     
  17. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Why bother?
     
  18. otoupalik

    otoupalik Karting

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    FYI, there are NO filters made "under license by" K&N. It is either made by K&N or not. I worked there, I know this 100%. K&N does NOT license its technology.

    Challenger sells K&N, but lists on their website "The K&N name is used for reference and description purposes only. That use is not to imply affiliation, sponsorship, approval, or connection with the K&N Engineering organization."

    If you are using an AUTO filter on your AIRPLANE, that may be part of the problem. The airspeed and fluid resistance is different in these two environments. Just something to think about.
     
  19. otoupalik

    otoupalik Karting

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    This is a VERY small company that will most likely use the material from someone else or have the product contract manufactured by someone else. I cannot comment as I don't know their product. However, there are enough top quality makers that do have warranty support and R&D, that I would just use one of those. Like Green, AFE, BMC, K&N
     
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  20. otoupalik

    otoupalik Karting

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    because many people LIKE to play with their cars, make improvements and personalize our toys. Simple as that.

    The aftermarket is a multi-billion dollar annual market for these reasons. You may not be part of this camp, that is fine. That is what makes the world go 'round - personal choice!
     
  21. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Lots of improvements on mine, like $20K worth of Mov'It ceramics, but foam filters are not one of them.
     
  22. otoupalik

    otoupalik Karting

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    Mov'it is great. Have used them before myself! Nice choice.

    So why are you being so negative about something that you may not like, but others clearly do? That is really odd to me.

    BTW, there is a significant difference between FOAM and PLEATED GAUZE. The filters we are talking about are the second type.
     
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  23. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    This is basically an opinion thread, and that is my opinion.
     
  24. Snapshift

    Snapshift Karting
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    Well we have one poster claiming that the Challenge filter is apples and oranges comparison to K&N.(Probably is) Your statement Challenger sells K&N, makes no sense. It is either a K&N or it is not. The disclaimer makes no sense. If Challenger sell K&N as you state, but the disclaimer says otherwise then just what are they selling? I paid over 250 for the Challenger STC so IT is supposedly NOT an Automobile filter, which it probably was anyway, just a rebranded K&N. My misunderstanding I guess, as it appeared a few years ago when I was using the Challenger it was indeed K&N Technology under license or it would be patent infringement. Either way it didn't work for me what ever it was they were selling, and perhaps blemished the K&N product for some consumers. Folks in the Aircraft community have gone to paper filters anyway.
     
  25. otoupalik

    otoupalik Karting

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    Well, it doesn't HAVE to be an opinion thread. As some of us have REAL data to support factual statements. I guess that is the point.

    My opinion is that its not hot enough today and it doesn't snow enough in the mountains, but I don't yell that when someone asks me the weather! :D
     
  26. raemin

    raemin Formula Junior

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    The feedbacks are interesting, but I was personally not entirely convinced by my previous experiences with these filters.

    As said the high induction kit that came with my filter was sub-par (to say the least). My car had a turbo without intercooler. With 0.7bar of boost, the engine was knocking like hell. With standard air intakes and paper filter, the engine was happy with 0.9bar. I know the issue was not the filter itself, more the crappy ancillaries that came with the kit. Maybe a gauze filter compatible with the stock air-intake system would have offered the claimed HP gain, but I had lost any faith in their R&D claim. That's what my experience is with the little 4 cylinder engine. Call me shy, but I am not taking any further chance and certainly not on the V12.

    Quite a few years ago there was a detailed article on BobIsTheOilGuy. One of the member made extensive testing on his Miata (Napa Paper Filter, Amsoil Foam Filter, K&N Gauze Filter). The K&N filter was allowing for 0.14% more airflow. Do not know if this was applicable to our cars, but the second part of the study was interesting: in order to assess the filtering capabilities of the filter, on the back of the filter he installed a second paper filter and inspected this secondary filter after 500miles. Here were the results:


    Seems to me the Napa paper filter was doing a much better job, than its foam and gauze counterparts.

    Web-barchive copy of the article : https://web.archive.org/web/20080815052403/http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest1.htm

    Back to the original question. I am no expert on your engines, but as far as the F101CL is concerned, Ferrari performed the following upgrades on the last iteration of this block: 4° inlet cam timing offset, cylinder bore +1mm, +3° ignition timing, updated exhaust manifolds, updated air-boxes. Result : +25hp. These 25hp are quite disappointing considering all these upgrades! Morale of the story: there is no free lunch and it takes some serious modifications to achieve significant HP gains. I really doubt these filters can deliver more than 5hp (on my engine).
     
  27. Mike Morrissey

    Mike Morrissey Karting

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    If you were a horse you’d feel it.
     
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  28. ago car nut

    ago car nut F1 Veteran
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    I know this is not relevant to this thread, But I remember watching live sprint cars on dirt in the 60s with open trumpets. The dirt went in one side and out the other.
    And the engines were rebuilt a lot.
     
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