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Does the next Ferrari need a V10?

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by ernie, Feb 15, 2004.

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Does the next Ferrari need a V10?

  1. Yes, Ferrari needs a V10

  2. No, the V8 works just fine

  3. No, the V12 is what Ferrari is all about

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  1. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I have felt that the next road going Ferrari needs a V10. The V10 has been the dominant engine in F1 since Renault whooped everyones butt with them. Ferrari has also been winning championships thanks to the V10, and especially the German behind the wheel. All of the F1 teams use them, now the V10 has found its way to road cars. The Viper was the first to have a V10. Then they showed up in trucks like the Ford Excursion, and now the Dodge SRT. Porsche has a V10 in it's latest super car, and the newest Lambo has a V10. Ford introduced it's latest version of the Cobra, that will be power by none other than a V10. Ferrari used to be the one that took technology from the track to the road car. They did it with things like the transverse gear box, the F1 style gear shift, five valves per cylinder, etc. But Ferrari is behind the ball on this one. They really need to put a V10 into the next car. The V10 is here in a big way and it is here to stay. Ferrari will be left in the dust if they don't get with the program.
     
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  3. wazza

    wazza Formula Junior

    Oct 9, 2003
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    Ernie,

    Didn't I read somewhere that they were trying to develop a V10 as the
    360 replacement but had failed and gone back to the V8 design ?

    Wazza
     
  4. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    How can they Fail at a V10?! Ferrari's F1 engine has been the most reliable engine in F1 for the last couple of years. That is one of the reasons that they have been beating everyone. There is no reason that they can't get one into the next car.
     
  5. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
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    Did you ever consider that you are wrong?

    You do know that when F1 switched to V10 engines, it was a comprimise between the V8 engine builders/users and the V12 engine builders/users. In other words, the V10 was mandated as equal ground. Both the V8 builders and the V12 builders had to learn 'about' as much new stuff, thereby creating a level playing field. Nothing about the V10 is inherently superior to either the V8 or V12 engine architectures, and in the question of engine balance, there is a considerable DEGREDATION with respect to both V8s and V12s.

    You do know that V10s have an off-kilter exhaust note rather than the smooth howl of the V8 of V12 architectures--do you not?

    So, in effect, you want Ferrari, the pinnical of high technology to follow in the footsteps of TRUCK makers for engine technology?!?

    The V10 used in the new Cobra will be a V8 by the time any production actually occurs.

    I will also note that nobody is using 5 valve engines in F1 technology any more, almost nobody ever did, and no teams have not really been experimenting with this since the early 1990s. It is not that hard to make a 4 valve engine produce the same power as a 5 valve engine. Honda produces 120 HP/litre with only 4 valves, and only Yamaha has had any success in motorcycle engines with 5 valves. Yamaha engines are not more or less powerful that their compatriots.

    The only real issue is power and its sister issue torque. Torque is a function of displacement and compression, leaving HP as a fuction of torque and of RPMs. As long as Ferrari can make a big engough displacement engine and can make if rev as high as necessary; enough power will come out the other end.

    The 360 engine block block is essentially identicle to the original 1980 308 block! It is thie size of this original 308 block that is holding back Ferrari engine technology in the mid engine cars, not the number of cylinders!

    While the new Gallardo engine produces a resonable amount of power, it does not have the revs of a 348! 500 HP from 5.0 liters is soooooo 1990 power levels!

    I suggest, instead, that Ferrari make a big displacement V8 block or a small displacement V12 block and show those Sant' Agatha (sp) designers how to get the job done.
     
  6. Mark(study)

    Mark(study) F1 Veteran
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    Funny when things just work out this way :)
     
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  8. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    I'd love to see a toned down F1 V10 in one of the street Ferraris.

    Right now there is some sort of disconnect because of that engine missing in the production cars. I was actually hoping the Enzo would use the V-10.
     
  9. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Of course a V10 has a different note than a V8 or a V12. There is a difference of 2 cylinders. No I don't want them to follow a truck. I was just pointing out the vehicles that already have a V10 in them. Besides the Porsche isn't a truck. The V10 does have advantages over a V8, two more cyliders to make power. The V10 also has an advatage over the V12, it weighs less. The reason the V8 and V12 builders had a learning curve is because they hadn't used that platform yet. Also the reason the engines sound so different is because of the crank more than number of cylinders. Put a flat crank in a V10 and you have that F1 sound.
     
  10. robinh

    robinh Formula Junior

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    A good port Mitch.

    Engine design is always a compromise and while the 10 cylinder engine is better than the 5 cylinder used by Audi (basically 2 bolted together to make the 10 or so I've read) there is nothing that compares 1st with a 12 and then an 8 in terms of crankshaft balance, vibration and smoothness of power delivery.

    The issue is one of hp and torque for a given size engine. These are related to stroke, displacement and rpm and the design of the engine is basically a function of these together with physical size, weight and strength.

    For the next engine I don't care how many pots it has but my preference, ignoring any other factors, would be 12, then 8 then 10.

    I would also like an engine to be reliable and 'cheap' to look after. For me this tends to rule out 12 cylinder engines as there are more moving parts and things that can go out of adjustment than with an 8 or a 10 (call me old fashioned as current engineering/computers can deal with much of this).

    How about Ferrari building a 8 that will rev to 10500 rpm or so. This should be easily possible given F1 technology and more of a transfer of F1 engineering to the road than going for 10 cylinders.

    For my money - 3.8 to 4 litres, 10500 rpm, over 500 bhp, 8 cylinders (10 perhaps), 350 lb torque in a car of just of 1000kg
     
  11. CCarlisi

    CCarlisi Karting

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    "How about Ferrari building a 8 that will rev to 10500 rpm or so. This should be easily possible given F1 technology and more of a transfer of F1 engineering to the road than going for 10 cylinders."

    Agreed. However, I imagine they would have to shorten the stroke to keep the piston speeds in check. This in turn would probably reduce torque, which we know is helpful in generating competitive performance numbers.
     
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  13. Auraraptor

    Auraraptor F1 World Champ
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    Bring on the Mid engined 12.

    Keep the high strung 8.

    Loose the 2 GTs and keep just one.
     
  14. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
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    "Put a flat crank in a V10 and you have that F1 sound." -- whaaaat?

    (Sorry to be a*al about it, but my geometry gene insists I comment.)

    ernie -- you should say: "preserve alternate-bank-firing and a V10 sounds as sweet as a V8 or V12 (with alternate-bank-firing)". A V10 with a flat crank would vibrate horribly (but we knew what you meant).

    V8-V10-V12 --- you guys are arguing which supermodel is best again -- it's all good...
     
  15. aawil

    aawil Formula 3

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    Sure why not if it sounds as good as the carrera GT.That's the benchmark IMO.
     
  16. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Im not saying get rid of the V8 or the V12. Ferrari just needs to add the V10 to the line up. The V12's are great, but the V8's Ferrari is putting out aren't keeping up with the rest of the pack. The new Ford GT smashes on everything in it's class. Even the Z06 can go a full fifteen rounder with the 360 and still not be out of breath. Ferrari used to be the bar, but now they are under it. If Ferrari properly does up a V10, I think it will put them back on top. They should make it no less than 5 liters, it must be reliable, it should have a flat crank, rev up to at least 9,500 rpm, be in a mid engined design, and the power should be scratching at 600 ponies. Oh yeah and they need to scrap the stupid cam belts, even at the expense of some rpm.
     
  17. beast

    beast F1 Veteran

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    I agree with this also. It would not be to hard to tune down an F1 V10 to end up with good reliability. Just limiting compression and the RPM limit will go a long way for that.

    The main reason that every team went with a V-10 in F1 was the fact that the optimum cylinder displacement for a 4 stroke engine is 300cc hence using 10 cylinders will bring the engine right up to the max capacity defined by the rules.

    One thing to remember is that Ferrari has hired the engineer that was the head of Renault's wide angle F1 V-10 engine to design the future street car engines.
     
  18. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Which is why I don't get it, that they're not doing this. I can see how they want to keep the 12 cylinder for its tradition, but the replacement of the 360 should be again more connected to F1.

    Not totally sure on this, but wasn't the 365BB and 512BB(i) engine what was in essence in Jody Scheckter's car (tuned down of course)? And the F-50 engine and gearbox came from Berger's car I believe? There are probably more connections some true historians could make. My point is, that we don't have this link right now, although I think to have read somewhere, that the Enzo's engine is based on the F1 V10. Not sure that is true though.
     
  19. beast

    beast F1 Veteran

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    Seriously doubt that it was. the typical F1 V-10 has a bore of aprox 100mm and a stroke of around 40mm.. The Enzo has a Bore of 92mm and stroke of 75.2mm. That in itself has a RPM reducing effect. Also the Enzo has variable cam timing where as the F1 motor has a fixed timing of the camshaft.

    About the only thing that the Enzo engine has in common with the F1 motor And a lot of Ferrari road cars share the same is:

    DOHC
    4 valves per cyl.
    Variable intake trumpet lengths
    Dry sump oiling system
    Titanium Connecting rods

    What the F1 motor has that the Enzo does not.

    Gear Cam drive
    Air valve springs
    A system that allows one bank of cylinders to work less than the other
    Air oil separation system


    The list could go on and on.

    The only problem with a detuned F1 engine in a road car would be the lack of torque avaliable to start from a dead stop under its own power without frying the clutch.
     
  20. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    That is a rather sobering list. So why then is a Enzo referred to as a F1 for the road? Just marketing hoopla? Bummer.
     
  21. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    The gear cam drive is even better than a chain. You will get NO stretch at all cause there is nothing to stretch. I have an aquaintance with gear drive on his Stang and it sounds wicked. But that is because the gears are straight cut. Just make the gears bevel cut and no more noise. That would be the greatest improvement to reliability that Ferrari could make.

    Oh yeah about that Dodge SRT V10 truck, hows this for power. 500hp and 525 lb/ft of torque. 0 - 60 just over 5 seconds, I'm guessing about 5.2 - 5.3. Top speed is over 150mph, in a freekin pickup truck!!!
     
  22. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Renault cleverly went to the v10 because it reduced the amount of radiator space and fuel needed, etc. Thus for an F1 car you end up with the ultimate comprise for 3000cc limit.

    As for the comment that ALL F1 teams use them now .... DER, please read the F1 rules ... THEY HAVE TOO!!!!. No longer in F1 is a team allowed to be free thinkers and thus all F1 engines have to be v10s of 3000cc.

    Ferrari no longer make 3 litre cars, and making a v10 would only be a marketing thing which would throw away many years of tradition from when F1 teams were allowed to think for themselves, etc.

    I find it quite amusing everytime this is posted that Ferrari need a v10, because the only people that current produce v10 ROAD engines have no presence in F1, and are trying to connect with that market. Ferrari does not have to play these games it should design the engine that is right for the application and number of cylinders should not be the restriction.

    Pete
     
  23. WFO_Racer

    WFO_Racer Karting

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    V8-V10-V12 I don't really care. My needs are simple I want at least 575hp and dash LED's that last more than 1 year.
     
  24. cinquevalvole

    cinquevalvole Formula 3

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    The company alway was proud to say that their road car engines were
    descending from the F1 engines. That sells.

    Engines for the road traditionally have much more cylinder capacity, less
    revs/minute in order to have a longer life, less noise by muffler etc.,
    less emission by adjustment ...cheaper parts in general ... and and and ...

    But the construction principles are the same as in the F1 engine
    (cylinders, angle, crankshaft, valves, camdrive, Last example: F50)

    Ergo: No way out for the Company to roll out a V10 for the road.
    But no difficulty for the company as well.
    It's not a performance issue, but rather a dilemma of marketing & tradition policy :)
    (emotional wishi-washi, hehehe)

    forza

    cinquevalvole
     
  25. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    As cinque pointed out, Ferrari has put F1 technology in it's street cars. So why are they being so stuborn on this. The V10 has more than proven it's a force to be delt with. Another reason that I feel the V10 needs to be used is because, Ferrari isn't doing all that great in the performance game. Yes they still perform, but not in the convincing dominant matter that they used to. Since Ferrari is set on sticking with small dispacement, naturally aspirated engines, the extra cylinders will help to make more power and still keep the displacement low. This is truely that way to go.

    Also adding a V10 to the lineup will give Ferrari a wider selection of cars to for customers to choose from. So it will help them sell more cars without flooding the market with a particular model. They can still keep production numbers down for each model, yet still expand the number of cars that they can sell. Thus make more money without diluting the exclusiveness of the mark.
     
  26. bostonmini

    bostonmini Formula 3

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    I can see the notion of more displacement as a requirement...Luca hates V10's, WHY do you need one? whats wrong with a nice M5 type 5 liter V8!
     
  27. Ken

    Ken F1 World Champ

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    I see your point and it's valid, but I take issue with it in as far as marketing really IS important and it's okay to make a sacifice for it IF it's not too extreme.

    The "Ferrari Mystique" we have endless threads on is related to racing in some aspects, and buying a road car that emulates a real Ferrari race car will have impact as time goes by. This is important. Remember the howls when the 8 cylinder cars came out? "It's not a REAL Ferrari". Hell, Frank still calls all 8's "Dinos". If Ferrari came out with a 10 cylinder road car, 20 or 30 years from now it may help instill the passion for a new generation. Personally, I feel like that about the 12's today even though the 8's make more sense in a lot of ways for a road car.

    Ken
     
  28. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Well bostonmini, speaking of the BMW M5. Can you guess what the new M is gonna have under the hood????????????
     

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