Does the next Ferrari need a V10?

Yes Ernie, But I believe that that is because the 10 cylinder plant has the right bore/stroke dimensions right? To rev up to 8500, I think they need to be engineered with a 10 if over 5 liters, perhaps, Im no engineer, but I dont see why more cylinders are necessary...

 

I don't think Ferrari is being as stuborn as are you!

A) V10 has not yet been proven to be a force to be reconned with in road cars.
B) at the revs the Lambo engine turns, it has NOT used its cylinder advantage to gain RPMs!
C) the Lambo engine uses a crank with 18 degrees between common throws--resulting in higher weight crankshafts and lower strength at the same time.
D) since the lambo engine has not used its cylinders for more RPMs, this is a pure displacement game to gain power. Therefore, any way you get the displacement that revs higher than 7800 will produce more power from the same 5 litres.

What makes you think that Ferrari is not doing all that well in the performance game? They seam to have as much performance as the 98th percentile track driver can use! And how often do you really NEED a car that goes from 0-60 in less than 4.x (for small integer x) legally?

When was a volume production Ferrari ever the fastest car on the road in any metric? Probably not since the 365 GT/B! any maybe not even then.

Ferrari does not want to sell more cars, they want to sell enough cars to:

A) preserve the legacy of excellence
B) avoid market saturation in recessions

 

I heard that Lambo used the 10 to get lots of torque across a wide band of power. Something like 80% of max torque is available at 2,000 rpms? Can someone explain this? Do you get better durability by keeping the rpms limited, yet starting the torque curve sooner?

How does the Viper get 500hp 500 torque?

Did the 360 improve much over the 355 with its need to rev high to get to the torque band?

 

Mark, the Viper gets it's power from huge displacement, head and cam design. It makes it's max power around 5300 RPM..

Per your other questions: the flatter the torque curve (i.e. the lower in the rev band that it makes peak torque), the faster the car will be from a dead stop. Also, in a road-racing situations, instantly available torque is extremely nice for pulling out of slow corners and not having to wait for the motor to spin up. The Gallardo has a nice motor; Audi did a good job.

 

Unless Ferrari wants to expand their market, I don't think they need V10 street car. Personally I would love to see Ferrari V10 though. But "want" & "need" is 2 different thing. It is interesting how Ferrari will counter w/ Gallardo if they make V10.

I don't see much gain for Ferrari coming out w/ V10 for street car, especially w/ their current supply situation.

Yoshi Ace

 

The V10 is coming to one more car ..... looks like a 360 and 911 mated

3.7 sec 0-60 mph Base Price $80k

AUDI LE MANS QUATTRO

POWERTRAIN: 5.0-liter, 610-hp, 553-lb-ft V10; awd, six-speed automatic

CURB WEIGHT: 3366 pounds

 

I must admit that I have changed my mind after reading all posts, especially Mitchs'. I withdraw my V10-vote and give it to V8.

 

Mark, I believe the LeMans Quattro is not set for production. It was just a concept car.

I still think that the engine format that works for ferrari is the one its using now:

Mid mounted, relatively low-displacement V8 for the small, entry level Ferrari (IE 355, 360)

Large displacement V12 up front in its GT car (456 and 550/575, now 612 Scag and "600GT")

Mid mounted large displacement, high revving 12 for its flagship car (TR, Anniversary series and Enzo)


Also, Id like to see and F1 inspired V10 out back in a limited production roadster, like an Enzo but more extreme. F60 maybe?

 

I accept that classification.

 

Scenario: If I am selling a product that does not perform as well as my competitor's product, but I tell the potential buyer that they will never need to use the additional performance that my competitor offers and that they do not have the ability to use the additional performance, how may products do you think I will sell? Better yet, who would be naive enough to accept my argument?

I know, performance is not everything. However. We are talking exotic cars here. Not Caddies. Not Lexus. Exotics. Performance may not be everything, but it is a huge factor. Why do you think there are cars cropping up left and right with 500 HP? If Ferrari doesn't get with the program, their only buyers are going to be the ones naive enough to accept the argument that Ferrari's don't need to be as fast as their competitors.

Regarding the 8, 10, 12 issue. I'd rather see Ferrari produce a mid-engine 12 in a coupe and spider version. Price it around $210 coupe $230 Spider. Heck, they could even use the 575 engine as a basis.

 

A) Because any other car company has to have more performance than Ferrari due to its luscious looks, and deep heritage, and exclusivity.

B) because engine computer technology has advanced to the point that these engines can meet emissions regulations.

C) because the cost of gasoline remains cheap.

D) because tire technology (and ABS and traction control) has advanced to the point that 500 HP in a street car is not suicidal.

How many Viper sales cause a loss of a Ferrari sale? OK, so a Viper is not a Ferrari, so there is something other than 500 HP that is modulating the playing field. Before you call foul, you should know I was dead set on buying a Viper until I saw the F355 that I eventually bought.

As far back as I can remember (early 1960s), no volume production Ferrari has been the performance leader in any standard catagory: 0-60, 0-100, 1/4 mile, 60-0, 70-0, 80-0. To be sure, Ferrari has been close, but to be sure, Ferrari still is close.

Lets see: Walk into Lambo dealer, buy a car, drive off; walk into Ferrari dealer get on list then wait 3 years to buy car. Doesn't seem like there is any lack of demand in the Ferrari camp (for mid engined sports cars).

I would also like to see a V12 mid engined Ferrari Sprots Car again. How about a 120 degree V12, nice and low for a good CoG, but with enough egress under the banks for underbody aerodynamics.

Rumor has the 360 replacement at $210+/-, so the V12 would have to be in the $270+ catagory. Still interested?

The 612 engine is more modern and would do just fine.

But what I would really like is a 2000 lb mid engined car with 300 HP or a 2500 lb mid engined car with 400 HP rather than a 3000 lb mid engined car with 500 HP. I remember back in the days that sports cars actually weighed in at 1600 lbs!

 

I'm a Ferrari owner, and I didn't buy the car for it's heritage. Looks yes, exclusivity yes, and performance for sure. I don't buy the argument that Ferrari leads so far ahead in all other categories that it doesn't have to equal the others in performance. Why shouldn't Ferrari keep up with the others in terms of performance? It makes no sense for them NOT to do this.

100hp differential is not close. And when Mercedes SL's start doing 3.6 0-60 times and 11.9 quarter mile times with 4500 pounds of weight and an automatic transmission, I think there is reason for Ferrari to look at performance. I know, I know. Put the SL on a track, right? Wrong. These are street cars.

When I hear that the 360 successor may only have 460hp, I cringe. If so, that car better drop 400 pounds of weight, and have a good amount of torque. But if it has a 460hp small displacement V8, forget about the torque.

With the exotic car market changing rapidly, I think you are going to see a shift in buying patterns (it's already starting). There are far more options out there today for people that have $150K-$300K to spend on a car. If Ferrari chooses not to equal or better the performance of the competition, these waiting lists are going to get shorter, and shorter. Up until recently, the 360 didn't really have any real competition. It's easy to generate 3 years of waiting lists when there are no other cars available in that market segment.

Yep. The Murcie is in that price category, and I'm looking to buy one of those. If Ferrari had a competitor in this arena, I would certainly be interested.

I agree with your comments about weight, but you also need to consider safety. I'm all for weight savings, provided that the driver safety is not compromised considerably. We need to remember that these are road cars, not track cars.

 

I, too, have to agree with ernie here.

The Ford GT is some 5-7 seconds faster around Laguna than the F360. This is done with TORQUE, not HP! 5.4 litres of displacement with ?12? PSI of boost to give as much HP and TQ as the 8.3 litre Viper engine. This (5-7 seconds) is a lot faster than the F360. Viper was the target of the engine program at ford, while 360 handling was the target of the chassis and suspension groups.

The Galardo 5.0 liter NA engine has 375 lb-ft and 500 HP and is slightly faster than F360. Here the TQ (375 versus 280) comes in direct proportion to displacement (5.0 versus 3.6), not cycliders or revs or any other magic.

The difference is TQ not HP. Put 400 HP with 500 lb-ft in the F360 and it would be mostrously faster; put 500 HP with the current 280 lb-ft and the F360 would only be moderately faster.

There are two ways to get TQ with pump gasoline, displacement or {super, turbo} chargers. We Tifosi dislike {ST} chargers because the loss of sound quality, leaving displacement as the route to higher TQ (compression is pretty close to maxed out already.)

If you are refering to the Cobra, rumors indicate the production car (if it is comitted to production) will have the V8.

Ferrari's are IMAGE cars, that just happen to be excellent on the street and track.

But since you persist: Name ONE Ferrari in volume production in the last 20 years that lead any of the 3 major statistics? 0-60, 0-100, 1/4 mile when compared to any other volume production car of the same year.

 

WTF are all you guys talking about? To read a lot of these posts you would think Ferrari models were now in the doldrums being beat on the street by every pimply-faced high school kid in a Mustang GT or Civic with a 3inch fart can on the back. Last time I checked, the fastest production car in the world period, was still a Ferrari Enzo, although purposely limited by gearing in top speed it is widely known the car has the capability of running 257mph if Ferrari had put a 7 speed in it or changed the final drive ratios; the 360 is still capable of a MERE 192mph or so; the 612 (which I do not like) is a FOUR SEATER capable of around 200mph so where's the problem? NONE of us are running these cars at these speeds so these are entirely academic arguments. Not to mention, I don't care about Murci's or Gallardo's supposed capabilities. Even if true, IMNTBHO, Ferrari's are ENTHUSIAST cars, Lambo's are boy-racer POSER cars. I'll take a Ferrari any day.

 

And another thing, at the end of the day it's still a F -- O ---R---D !! How exciting.