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Eletrical problem when starting 348

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by gredinger, Jul 30, 2004.

  1. gredinger

    gredinger Karting

    Feb 19, 2004
    50
    Sweden
    Full Name:
    Peter Gredinger
    This has happened twice:

    - turning the key to the step before the starter
    - waiting for fuel pumps
    - turning the key the last step - nothing happens

    I can hear a relay? 'clicking' from the engine compartment when turning the last step.
    I removed the plastic cover under the wheel and gently 'moved' the cables going into the 'key module'.
    Tried it again...nothing.
    Moved the cables again, tried again...the starter was running as normal and the car started.

    Any ideas?
    I mean something happens when the key is turned the last step since the relay? is 'clicking'.
    Anyone who has some electrical scheme or similar?
    Maybe it does not have anything to do with the cables? Just a coincident?
    The starter sounds perfectly normal once it is running.

    Regards,
    Peter
     
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  3. maserati424

    maserati424 Rookie

    Apr 11, 2004
    29
    Berlin, Germany
    Full Name:
    frank gablenz
    Sounds like the solenoid on the startermotor will have a problem.
    Don´t know if you can reach the starter if you open the hood.
    If you can , so give the starter a light slam with a hammer or a piece of wood and try again.
    The other possible thing is a contact problem in the starter lock.
    Just try this first, hope it will help you to find the problem.
     
  4. gredinger

    gredinger Karting

    Feb 19, 2004
    50
    Sweden
    Full Name:
    Peter Gredinger
    Thanks!

    I guess I have to wait until it happens next time...which I am sure will happen since it has happened twice already.
     
  5. gredinger

    gredinger Karting

    Feb 19, 2004
    50
    Sweden
    Full Name:
    Peter Gredinger
    Ok, lesson learned.
    I searched the forum and found some good threads about this problem.
    Seems like the ignition switch could be the reason.
     
  6. Ferrari_tech

    Ferrari_tech Formula 3

    Jul 28, 2003
    1,527
    UK
    Full Name:
    Malcolm W
    Another thing to check is the fuse / relay board, they do suffer with intermittant failures and it would be worth checking through the ignition circuit from the board to the ignition switch and down to the solenoid.
     
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  8. NC348

    NC348 Karting

    Feb 18, 2003
    154
    Houston, TX
    Full Name:
    James I. Movich
    someone was kind enough to help me with a similar problem.

    sometime it's the simple things.....

    open the deck
    look straight down at the starter
    right to the left of the large lug you will see a spade connection and wire
    make sure this is tight, clean, etc.
    try agin
    yes? good
    no?
    go to more complex solutions
     
  9. airbarton

    airbarton Formula 3

    Nov 11, 2002
    1,462
    Kennesaw, Ga.
    Full Name:
    Chuck Barton
    Check the bullet connector between the battery and the starter. They are notorious for causing this problem. They are lead like the battery terminals themselves and wear with time. Once they are worn, they no longer make a good connection which causes the problem you describe. It is generally worse on a hot start than a cold one but it can happen on both. Next time it happens, open the engine lid and wiggle the connector then try to start again. If it starts, you found your problem.
     
  10. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    19,975
    socal
    check bullet conector (S) there are two of them

    use remote starter switch on starter motor to isolate ignition and some wiring problems
     
  11. gredinger

    gredinger Karting

    Feb 19, 2004
    50
    Sweden
    Full Name:
    Peter Gredinger
    I have started the car a couple of times using a wire between the "+" and the connection point that activates the solenoid (same as coming from the key). No problem...

    When I turn the key and nothing happens I can turn the key like 50 times...nothing.
    I then start the engine (as described), shuts the car down, try the key and it works first try with the key?!?
    What is going on?

    I have not yet been able to measure the signal from the key when it does not work.

    What is between the key and the starter?
    Another relay? Where can I find that relay in that case?
    Is there an extra connector to make it easier for an engine out? Where?
     
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  13. maserati424

    maserati424 Rookie

    Apr 11, 2004
    29
    Berlin, Germany
    Full Name:
    frank gablenz
    No hope for you , there is a gremlin in your car ;-)
    Ignition lock ?
    If you are alone put a 12v lamp on the cable that leads to the solenoid if you see the light power came from the ignition lock.You need to make a Y cable
    No light no power from the ignition lock.
     
  14. airbarton

    airbarton Formula 3

    Nov 11, 2002
    1,462
    Kennesaw, Ga.
    Full Name:
    Chuck Barton
    There is another connector between the key and the started. The schematic lists it as an engine connector. It is on the left side of the engine compartment up near the top. It is a twist off type pin connector. Try cleaning it. It is in a spot that allows it to get moisture inside which can cause corosion. I would also try Billy's advice and check the bullet connector between the battery and the starter. It is underneath the air cleaner. These connectors have been known to cause the problem you describe.
     
  15. gredinger

    gredinger Karting

    Feb 19, 2004
    50
    Sweden
    Full Name:
    Peter Gredinger
    Still have not found that Gremlin ;-)

    So at the moment the car works fine! so I have not been able to measure the power when the starter is 'dead'.
    I will definitely check the 'engine connector'. Thanks for the infp!
    Since heat is influencing it sounds like it could be the one.

    Since the car always starts when putting a wire between + and the ignition signal I think the bullet connector is fine.
     
  16. Kevallino

    Kevallino Formula 3

    Feb 10, 2004
    2,248
    Los Angeles
    Full Name:
    Kevin
    Mine did the same thing when hot - just had a relay fitted that (I think) does what you're doing with your wire. Mike at Ferrari Service of Costa Mesa said he sees this a lot with 348's and Mondial's and it has something to do with heat soak in the starter and voltage drop from the battery or something. So far (touch wood) the car has started 100% since I got it back on Friday.

    I will try to take a pic of Mike's install for you but I'm not sure how much you will see.

    Cheers
    Kevin
     
  17. Philjay50

    Philjay50 Formula Junior

    Jan 16, 2003
    594
    Chester, England
    Full Name:
    Philip
    It sounds like a very similar problem to mine ,see Mondial Starting problem, I think that the checks for them both will be pretty much the same.
     
  18. gredinger

    gredinger Karting

    Feb 19, 2004
    50
    Sweden
    Full Name:
    Peter Gredinger
    airbarton: Is it the 12 pin connector you are reffering to (up to the left)?
    I tried to follow the ignition wire (hard...) and I think it ended up in that connector.
    Do you know which pin is connceted to the starter?
    There are two white wires in the connector, I guess it is one of them.
    Is there no relay in the schematic (between ignition and starter)?

    Philjay50: I have followed your thread as well. It seems like we might have the same 'gremlin'. I have been trying to find the connector described in your thread but I cannot find it...
     
  19. airbarton

    airbarton Formula 3

    Nov 11, 2002
    1,462
    Kennesaw, Ga.
    Full Name:
    Chuck Barton
    Sounds like you found it. It is just to the right of the shock tower. It is the large white wire that feeds the solenoid. I had a similar problem and found the solution there. I removed the wire from the connector, pulled it thru the plastic shield and made a seperate connection by soldering on a higher quality connector. There is no relay between the ignition and starter that I am aware of.
     
  20. FNU_LNU

    FNU_LNU Karting

    May 22, 2004
    196
    New England
    Full Name:
    AM
    I took a 90 348 for a inspection before purchace and had the same problem - it was same as what maserati424 noted - we had to borrow a tire iron from a Porsche dealer on the way back to tap the starter - then she fired right up.
     

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