Engine oil and ZDDP | Page 2 | FerrariChat

Engine oil and ZDDP

Discussion in '206/246' started by solly, Jul 5, 2009.

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  1. TheGreat348

    TheGreat348 Karting

    Jul 15, 2008
    67
    Royal Purple is supposed to be good in this area, as is the ppm content in M1 Extended Performance.
     
  2. solly

    solly Formula 3

    Jun 2, 2001
    1,148
    Westchester NY
    Full Name:
    Dr. Steven S.
    Thanks for all the feedback
     
  3. solly

    solly Formula 3

    Jun 2, 2001
    1,148
    Westchester NY
    Full Name:
    Dr. Steven S.
    Here's my research so far. This applies to older flat tappet engines like the Dino's:

    Ideal amount of zinc in ppm: 1100-1200 for older flat tappet engines. Not sure about how much phosphorus you need but the various websites seem to suggest it is also about 1100-1200. The original Shell "100" oil listed in the Dino owners manual apparently had between 1100 and 1200 ppm. Too much is as bad as too little. Over 1300-1400ppm of zinc/phos will cause premature engine wear. So how do you achieve the ideal "window" of 1100-1200 with an additive like ZDDPlus when you know only the additive's ratio of zinc and phosphorus but you don't know how many ppm are in the oil you just bought? I just returned from a local NAPA where I looked at various oils, both synthetic and non-synthetic. Not one lists the amount of zinc or phosphorus (many web sites suggest that all AGI-compliant oils today have about 600-700 ppm). I don't want to just guess and hope for the best. The "window" I mentioned above is a narrow one.

    AMSOIL 10W40 (part#AMO), which is non-AGI compliant contains a bit over 1300 ppm of zinc and a bit over 1200 ppm of phosphorus. It appears close to ideal, but it's a synthetic (Group 4-100% synthetic) and I have always run dinosaur oil and have no desire to start mopping up engine oil leaks, which seems to be the norm with old cars and pure (Group 4) synthetic oils. I see that some of you are running synthetics and apparently are OK with it, but it's not an option for me.

    I only put about 1,000 miles a year on the Dino, but I drive it primarily in summer in NY where temps in the 80's-90's are routine. And I drive the V-6 at high RPMs, typically 4000 and over. So the miles I do put on are high-stress miles, and we all know that generating this much heat is not a wonderful thing for an engine designed during the days of leaded gas (another great lubricant now gone) and high ZDDP oil which is now also gone. Plus the fact that the metal parts are now 35 years old and have been through thousands of heat cycles and are most likely not as robust as they were in 1974. So I would like to know that at least the critical bits and pieces are well lubricated. I have a '71 Jaguar E-type which now has the same problem, but it's a lot cheaper to fix than the Dino engine if anything does go wrong. I still have 2 kids to put through college.

    One of the Porsche forums suggests using a dual purpose gas/diesel oil (CI-4/SM rated) which has a higher concentration of these lubricants, but other websites warn that oils formulated for diesel motors contain a lot of stuff we don't really want in our gas engines, even if there is an SM rating, so this is not an option either.

    Love to hear from anyone else on this topic, particularly if anyone has found any non-anecdotal (scientific) data about this problem. Thanks to all of you for your help.

    P.S. What is the first "modern" Ferrari V-8 engine to use roller cams? 308 Dino/308/328/348/355/360?
     
    Ribolla_67 likes this.
  4. Spasso

    Spasso F1 World Champ

    Feb 16, 2003
    14,648
    Land of Slugs & Moss
    Full Name:
    Han Solo
    IIRC all of these cars listed do not use cam followers of any kind. The cam is directly over the valve stem and the lash is adjusted with shims.
    Rifledriver has this answer.
     
  5. jselevan

    jselevan Formula 3

    Nov 2, 2003
    1,873
    Solly - thanks for the effort in your research. One observation/question. While emotionally we believe that summer driving leads to more heat in the engine, I believe that the thermostat acts as a feedback control device, maintaining 185 degrees F in summer or winter. Yes, the winter months lead to longer warm-ups and faster cool-downs, but operating temperature should be the same.

    Jim S.
     
  6. thecarreaper

    thecarreaper F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Sep 30, 2003
    17,564
    Savannah
    i use one can of BG MOA for my ZDDP Ferrari fix. :)
     
  7. 4redno

    4redno Formula 3

    Mar 21, 2006
    1,066
    Seattle, WA
    Full Name:
    Keith Mitchell Wintraub
    I only use Valvoline VR1 20W-50 in my car. Everything you need to keep your Dino running well is in each quart. Go to their website and read up on the contents.

    Cheers...Keith
     
  8. solly

    solly Formula 3

    Jun 2, 2001
    1,148
    Westchester NY
    Full Name:
    Dr. Steven S.
    A 20 weight oil is pretty thick for warmup on a 50 degree spring/fall day. Since most wear occurs during warmup where the oil is not yet thinned by temperature I would not use a 20 weight oil in an old high performance engine. The owner's manual specifies 10W-30, and while I'm fine with a heavier weight on the top (10W40 for example), I would not use an oil this thick when cold. But that is only my opinion. Here is an excellent technical paper on the subject. While written by a purveyor of ZDDPlus (presumably with a financial interest in the matter), it does address the technical aspects of wear and scuff.

    I do not know what the Dino's static spring loading is, and we don't use pushrods and rocker arms, but the theory is the same. The total force being applied by the cam to the tappet is what needs to be measured, then an appropriate amount of zinc/phosphorus needs to be added by %.

    Another writer states that after the first .002" of wear has occurred at the cam/tappet interface, the wear progresses much faster afterwards. The tappets in the Dino are surface hardened according to the manual (they may not be ground down to achieve correct valve clearance). Once this layer of surface hardness is breached then wear progresses in an exponential mannert rather than in a linear manner. Same goes for the cams, although I don't know if they are surface-hardened.

    Does anyone know what the static spring load is on a Dino? Or how to calculate dynamic loads at say 5000 RPM? We must have some engineers here.

    The big problem here is that few of us remove the valve covers on a routine basis to check for tappet/cam wear. Has anyone noticed an increasing need for valve clearance adjustment (too much space?). The problem might not manifest itself for some time given the low mileage most of us put on these cars, but maybe 5 years from now we'll have a spate of cam/tappet failures? It's like a slow growing cancer. By the time it manifests itself it requires major surgery to repair. Prevention would be so much better.
     
  9. solly

    solly Formula 3

    Jun 2, 2001
    1,148
    Westchester NY
    Full Name:
    Dr. Steven S.
    From Valvoline's website. Apparently the VR-1 racing oils DO have sufficient levels of ZDDP (1225 ppm) to protect the Dino engine.

    2.What is zinc?

    The anti-wear additive simply referred to as "zinc" by most car enthusiasts is actually short for Zinc DialkylDithiophosphates or ZDDP. Its primary role is to prevent metal-to-metal contact between engine parts by forming a protective film. Despite being referred to as "zinc," this additive actually contains zinc and phosphorus, with phosphorus performing the anti-wear function.

    4.What is the controversy surrounding the amount of zinc in motor oil?

    Many hands-on car enthusiasts and engine experts believe the lower levels of zinc in "SM" motor oil is causing excessive wear in older style push-rod and flat tappet engines. This is despite the fact that all new motor oil classifications are intended to be backward compatible. This has resulted in the widely accepted belief that modern motor oil is not adequate to protect older engines.

    HOWEVER:


    1.What are the benefits to using a racing oil versus a regular "street legal" oil?

    The Valvoline VR1 Racing & "Not Street Legal" Racing Oils contain additional additives for increased horsepower and reduced friction on metal parts, provide extra wear protection for high compression/higher horsepower engines, and include LESS DETERGENTS (emphasis mine) than regular conventional motor oils.


    The "less detergents" can be an issue. This is a racing oil. I change the oil in my Challenge car every 6-8 HOURS of track time, so sludge buildup is not a concern. While VR-1 apparently has some detergent, the fact that it is less than a street oil means more frequent oil changes. I have no idea how much more frequent. Still, they do offer VR-1 in both non-synthetic and full synthetic, so it appears to have what we need. I am going to use the 10w-30 dinosaur oil and see what happens. If it runs too hot or can't maintain oil pressure at high RPM I'll try the 20W-50, as there is no 10-40
     
  10. jselevan

    jselevan Formula 3

    Nov 2, 2003
    1,873
    #36 jselevan, Jul 12, 2009
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2009
    Solly - It is well known that the Achilles' heel of the Dino engine is the cam/shim interface. The bottom end is bullet proof. However, as you have offered (quoted above), failure to check shim clearance, and more important, shim integrity every 7500 miles has led many early Dino owners to new cams. The sequence is as follows: Shim hardened surface is breeched after 7500 miles or so. Shim begins to develop center concavity. The cam lobe wears to the shape of the shim, thus developing rounded shoulder edges.

    The Owner's Manual calls for a 7500 mile maintenance routine. However, as anyone who has done this knows...checking and changing shims whilst the engine is in the car is a back-breaking, no-fun, beer drinking experience. Thus, many either do not do it, or take it to a mechanic who either forgets to do it (while not forgetting to charge for it), or does it but does not pay particular attention to the condition of the shim surface.

    Shims with an unused side may be flipped. Shims with both sides used must be renewed. Do it every 7500 miles or less, or simply invest in several sets of new cams. Your choice. Volvo shims are the same as Ferrari, albeit I have found Ferrari shims for less money than Volvo.

    I find it easier to remove the engine and adjust the shim clearance on the stand. Seventy-five hundred miles for me is 5 years or so, and it is about time for hoses and cleanup. Once out, there is much detailing that can be done in the engine bay. And it is a great deal more fun to work on the engine sitting in a chair than leaning over the car.

    Jim S.
     
  11. gcmerak

    gcmerak Formula 3

    Mar 17, 2008
    1,657
    Engine Bay, Georgia
    Full Name:
    George C.
     
  12. 4redno

    4redno Formula 3

    Mar 21, 2006
    1,066
    Seattle, WA
    Full Name:
    Keith Mitchell Wintraub
    I go with the VR1 20W 50 and change my oil and filter every 1000 miles or so. I know it seems excessive but the car is on a lift when not in use and so it doesn't take much effort to do with the right tools and parts which I keep on hand. Overkill yes, but it seems like cheap insurance given how much time, money and sweat equity I've got in the car.

    Cheers,

    Keith
     
  13. TheGreat348

    TheGreat348 Karting

    Jul 15, 2008
    67
    I am not sure to the truth in this but I have heard that ZDDP additives are not as effective as oil "formulated" with ZDDP as they are introduced into the concoction with specific requirements for effectiveness. How true this is....I do not know but I found it to be an interesting statement. I believe a "big shot" over on one of the big oil boards was talking about this. Figured I'd share as potential FFT.
     
  14. solly

    solly Formula 3

    Jun 2, 2001
    1,148
    Westchester NY
    Full Name:
    Dr. Steven S.
    Keith- When was the last time you checked valve clearance? as was pointed out below the shims/cams are the weak link here. The owners manual specifies a 10W-30 oil. Don't you find the 20W too thick at cold temps? The cams/shims have no dedicated oiling system as far as I am aware. They get oiled by windage (spatter). There are some tappets with oiling holes drilled through them, or slots reamed into them to provide oiling, but not on the Dino. So its tough enough getting even a 10W oil to the interface while the car is cold, which is when 90% of the wear occurs. I am not criticizing you or trying to alarm you but I'd hate to see that beautiful car (and all your sweat) go bad. There is something psychological about using a heavier weight oil on the theory that more is better, and that 10W-30 oils were designed for our grandfathers' cars, so they must be obsolete. But there is a good reason the Ferrari engineers required a 10 weight oil. I'd even use a 5 or zero weight-30 or -40 if I could find one with enough ZDDP.

    Anyway, just ordered a case of Valvoline ZR-1 10W-30 from Car Shop Inc. http://valvoline.carshopinc.com/index.php/manufacturers_id/391829 or 800-603-4359. It is pretty much unobtainium anywhere else.
     
  15. gcmerak

    gcmerak Formula 3

    Mar 17, 2008
    1,657
    Engine Bay, Georgia
    Full Name:
    George C.
    FWIW I am using M1 0W-40. It has 1000 ppm ZDDP already in it. Remember more ZDDP is not better in this case. I let my car idle for about 3 to 4 minutes before moving it in the summer. At that point have the water temp. starting to climb off the zero mark. I take a little more time to get going in the winter.

    Ciao,
    George
     
  16. jselevan

    jselevan Formula 3

    Nov 2, 2003
    1,873
    Solly - I am sorry to chime in periodically, but I am following this thead with great interest. As an "older" member of the community, I have found that my passion for things mechanical, and theoretical discussions, have evolved to the more pragmatic. While I agree that published literature posits that "..90% of wear occurs while the engine is cold...", I have difficulty reconciling this with the overwhelming, vast majority of modern cars that start on cold mornings and rush out of the driveway without a hint of warmup. Yet, these engines are the last thing to fail on the vehicle, delivering 100,000 miles before the first tune-up. The "typical" car finds itself running for 200,000 miles over 10+ years, and engine wear is not an issue. Furthermore, there must be, let's say, 200 million vehicles driving the streets of the globe daily. How many of these enthusiasts idle their cars for a few minutes before the leisurely drive to work? Surely, 90% of anything, when 200 million is involved, would reveal itself as rusted hunks of debris along the sides of the roads.

    There seems to be a divide between theory and practice.

    Jim S.
     
  17. Dino Club Germany

    Dino Club Germany Formula Junior

    Nov 10, 2008
    549
    Germany
    Full Name:
    N. Schumacher
    #43 Dino Club Germany, Jul 16, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    As posted before I spend some years on test benches and main focus was:
    Factors like Viskosity, Revolutions, Temperature, Oil Pressure, mechanical factors, Oil quality, Oil age, etc.
    and their Influence on friction which correlates with power, fuel consumption and also engine/components "getting old".
    The picture show a engine which was with an external thermostat and 100 % Glycol cooled down to -40 degrees C while running on the
    test bench. I can tell that after removing the oil pan screw the oil creeps out like honey when it is that cold...
    I don´t want to open or extend annother boring oil thread, but let me say only a few results I´m allowed to share:

    It is true that the time till the oild gets to the last bearing in the engine after a cold start is important.
    Till the oil isn´t between the components there is a lot of friction which causes the "wear out".
    A valid statement is, that during a cold start the influence to the engine equals 200 km constant drive on a highway.
    That means, a engine which has 1000 km on it but was started cold 100 times looks inside like another one with 20000km without stopping.
    Also known is that the time till oil gets from the oil pump to the cams is too long on our Dinos and is one root cause for cams/shim problem.
    I guess everybody know also the oil filter improvement by ferrari which the insert which keps the oil inside the filter and shorten the time for
    the oil because it runs know quicker from the filter to the heads.
    I don´t know if current improvement with the cams were discussed like the small holes which let the oil from inside the cam directly to the shim?
    For the oil issue, I can tell that low viscosity like 0W or 5W only helps below -5 degrees C by getting the oil quicker to everywhere,
    so for me no reason to use it.
    Best regards
    Nicolai
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  18. jselevan

    jselevan Formula 3

    Nov 2, 2003
    1,873
    Nicolai - thank you for your reply, and I do not disagree with your premise. My observation was based simply on experience, that is, the experience of one-quarter billion cars worldwide.

    That said, you raise an important, and perhaps, controversial issue with regard to the importance of oil flowing to mating surfaces during the first few seconds. I offer that a film of oil remains on surfaces for months, and that during the first few seconds this film is sufficient to lubricate mating surfaces. Oil flow refreshes this film, along with heat dissipation. On open surfaces, such as cam-lobe to shim, it is simply a film issue. On closed bearings, as seen with crankshaft shell bearings, in theory, the crank journal should "float" within a film of oil.

    In summary, theory, and perhaps metallurgical examination supports the premise that cold starts are bad. Experience suggests otherwise.

    Jim S.
     
  19. 4redno

    4redno Formula 3

    Mar 21, 2006
    1,066
    Seattle, WA
    Full Name:
    Keith Mitchell Wintraub
    Solly:

    My car has seen very little use since its restoration almost 9 years ago. I spray fogging oil in the cylinders in the winter and try to turn the motor over a few times before I fire it up. I then let it get good and warm up before she gets driven. While I should check the cam wear in the next year, the mileage I have put on it is shamefully low and so I'm less concerned about cam wear and more interested in increasing overall wear. Of course, the fact that I have a job in the tech field and will soon have three kids who are all below the age of four means the car is going to continue to see limited use. That being said, when I drive the Dino, it runs like a top and puts a big #*% eating grin on my face.

    Cheers,

    Keith
     
  20. Dino Club Germany

    Dino Club Germany Formula Junior

    Nov 10, 2008
    549
    Germany
    Full Name:
    N. Schumacher
    @Jim,
    I don´t wanted to argue against your statements.
    I think in over 90% of all our Dino usage we even never have a "cold start", as it is probably always over 15-20 degrees C when we use the car.
    For me important is that these oils with very low vicosity doesn´t make sence and in addition the have the risk with cleaning additives.
    And in general that even with a poor quality oil there will be now problem if the engine gets warmed up carefully and is used
    more for longer rides during the oil gets over 100 degrees C.
    I just opened the valve cover from two BMW 6 cylinder engines from my cars which both had a mileage around 260000km.
    One looks like new and the other one was full of black mudd.
    I learned from the pre owners that the clean one was driven to work daily with 120 km one way there and back and he used standard 15W40 Oil.
    I was really suprised that it was not the oil which avoided the dirt in the cylinder head and it was the driving on the highway.

    @Keith:
    I don´t want to scare you, but I found after 15 000km on my brand new original cams one tappet which was already defect.
    My mileage dropped because of family and work situation also dramaticlly down in the last 10 years, so I will check again soon
    for the next 15000 km inspection.

    Regards
    Nicolai
     
  21. jselevan

    jselevan Formula 3

    Nov 2, 2003
    1,873
    Thank you, Nicolai for that information. I believe that the absence or presence of "mud" is less likely to be related to the type of driving as to other variable conditions within the engine. I believe the "mud" is related to combustion carbon. With this premise, fuel injection mixture (rich or lean), altitude of use (mixture), oil ring integrity (combustion carbon escaping into the crankshaft), efficiency of combustion (voltage at spark plug), timing, etc., all will influence how cleanly an engine will burn, and how much of this dirt will find its way into the oil. Finally, how often both the oil and filter were changed will influence the quantity of residue in the various oil passages or locations.

    It is likely that these two seemingly identical 6 cylinder cars lived different lives.

    Jim S.
     
  22. Dino Club Germany

    Dino Club Germany Formula Junior

    Nov 10, 2008
    549
    Germany
    Full Name:
    N. Schumacher
    Both BMW engines are from around 1990, so with Bosch Motronic, Lambda Control etc.
    Of course I can´t tell all their history and threadment, but as you said the fuel injection mixture is a factor.
    And if the car was only used in short distance drives and the engine never gets hot, the fuel mixture is always to rich
    (ecu puts an offset of up to 30% on the maps of injection timing.
    This amount of fuel can´t get burned totally and escape between the piston rings and the cylinder into the oil,
    the oil smells like fuel and in extreme cases the oil level seems to increase.
    I think this is also what supports the "mudd" inside the oil circle.

    On Dino engines of course we only have the choke which would make the same effect, but most Dino don´t use it
    or even have it not connected.
     
  23. jselevan

    jselevan Formula 3

    Nov 2, 2003
    1,873
    All oil comes out of the can clear, almost like water. Several thousand kilometers later it is dark, like carbon. It is the products of combustion and unburnt petrol that taint the oil, finding their way into the oil via the piston rings and valve guides. There is no other conduit. Filter will remove some, not all. If one engine has a clean valve cover, and the other doesn't, either the oil was changed more frequently, the engine was running cleaner (leaner), or the rings and valve guides were of better tolerances.

    We're all saying the same thing. I just don't believe in the cold-start terror, nor the crisis caused by removing ZDDP. Too many billions of miles suggest that these are non-issues.

    Jim S.
     
  24. solly

    solly Formula 3

    Jun 2, 2001
    1,148
    Westchester NY
    Full Name:
    Dr. Steven S.
    Jim- you reference many millions of miles put on by cars where the owner rarely does any "warmup". I agree. I have 93,000 miles on my Subaru WRX, I never warm it up, and I go to Presto-Lube for oil changes. But these are more modern cars built with different surface hardness, and built to withstand the loss of ZDDP as well as the loss of lead as lubricants (reference the link I posted below). So your comparison is unfair. If millions of vintage cars (built for leaded gasoline and high ZDDP oils) took to the road every day and were driven the same way, I believe you would see blown up engine parts all over the road.

    From MPT Industries, a specialty lubricant manufacturer (They do not make ZDDPlus):
    "You may already be aware that the Environmental Protection Agency has mandated that the use of Zinc dialkydithophosphate (ZDDP) for the most part be eliminated from use in automotive motor oils due to the harmful effects on automotive emissions control systems. As a result, American Petroleum Institute (API) approved motor oils currently contain less than one tenth of a percent of ZDDP. This has created a serious deficiency in the ability of petroleum based motor oils to provide adequate wear protection during break-in.

    In the past, the anti-wear properties of ZDDP would leave a zinc-phosphate protective film on the surface of engine components. Now, without the protective film, high performance engines and older engines with flat tappet valves risk the possibility of premature wear. In these cars, a ZDDP additive or suitable substitute must be obtained to ensure there will be no premature engine failure."

    So the film you are talking about that stays on the cams may still be a film, but it won't contain enough lubricating agents for older engines. And maybe there is not 90% wear in the first few minutes, but we all seem to agree that there is SOME additional wear during that time period.

    Again, as these cars are used sparingly, any problems may not show up for years, but the early literature seems to forecast some doom and gloom at some point. Many builders of flat tappet engines that are in high use are already seeing extremely high failure rates. So for the $7.95 a quart I paid for 6 quarts of high ZDDP oil, I can potentially protect my vintage car from wear problems. No downside, potential upside-why bet against myself with these odds? A rebuild is close to the cost of a year in college for one of my kids, while the specialty oil cost me $47.

    Is there a torque setting for the oil plug? Or is it just tighten until the washer crushes and then a bit more? Going to put the car on my lift and dump in the new oil now.
     

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