Negative. I am on record as stating my opinion that the 355 is the finest street going Ferrari ever put on the road. They have what I consider the perfect combination of weight, power, brakes, handling and size coupled with the right looks and sound. Because you have not seen or heard of a problem does not mean it doesn't exist. Brian and myself discuss issues we find weekly and sometimes daily and try to put answers to why its happening in a very analytical process. I think most folks here know that neither of us need to generate work by spreading false statements. Both of us have been servicing this marque for 30 + years while the Honda and Toyota techs down the street are making a far greater salary. This alone should say something about our dedication and respect for the marque. Back to the original topic. I have seen numerous cars with the valve guide issues where the carbon on the outer 2 intake valves is built up to the point it has formed to the shape of the intake port. This will cancel any air flow what so ever from those 2 valves (the center intake valve is constantly being washed clean of carbon by the injector) until it is near full lift. With no or little air flow from the outer valves there is no swirl effect any longer let alone highly limited air flow into that cylinder. Inject roughly the same amount of fuel (the O2 sensor is looking at all 4 cylinders on that bank), remove or distort the swirl effect in the intake track, limit the air flow and complete combustion of the fuel in that cylinder is near impossible, now run it up to redline for a summer = ring wash out. Run around with the cats broken apart highly restricting the exhaust flow..... Drive a car with the headers melted causing high back pressure making the exhaust valves run white hot..... "How do we fool the O2 sensors into not throwing CEL's"..... Run them rich (or inefficently) when they are designed for lean run and one will see just how good a wear agent gasoline really is! The jet spraying oil on the bottom of a piston is there to keep it from melting from the lean running condition they are designed for. Heat = power and efficiency. Take any one of these factors away and they run rich. Anyone still think lining up cam marks and calling that good enough is still a valid argument? The key here is educating the owners on what to keep watch for and having the cars serviced where techs are constantly looking for problems before they grow to unmanageable levels. Each model has its problems, thats universal. Brian and I have tried to educate some here as to the real value of the "quick fixes". How many threads has everyone read about cam timing and the statements that it "ran good before, its OK to slide belts on and go. They are just trying to up sell work"? You bet, you caught us. Personally I refuse to book at "time slot" for a customer at my shop. Because of the absolute need to check a myriad of details on these cars to keep them on a preventive maintenance plan rather than a triage situation, I can only keep a ledger of who is next in line. A car comes in and is done when everything is checked over and done or when we reach a customers budget limit. The damage that can result from a tech over looking (or not knowing what to look for) these small issues leads to VERY expensive repairs in the end. Now, just how does one judge a good value at a repair shop? By the time spent on a given job? Try again. I have $40+K invested in Ferrari Engine Management testers alone and they are not that impressive looking as an art object! Now on to a real problem! Brian, now what's this crap your talking about the Bunny? Sorry for the long, drawn out response. Too many issues to deal with that get my goat, and then Brian with this Bunny thing....GEEZ! Dave
Dave, I agree with you, the 355 is one of the most satisfying Ferrari's out there. The engine sound when you get up there, the handling, and most of all the looks. They are awsome! Granted you have some service issues, as long as you stay on top of them. Everyone one you talk to within Ferrari circles and I mean Ferrari dealers and FNA and independents will agree. Rafi
Sounds pretty logical, so would you recommend during a cambelt change with engine out to always pull the heads or just get down into the head/cylinders with a scope for visual inspection every 6K? Guys that look after my car have 35 years experience & factory trained and they havn't come across these issues though (specialise in 12 re-builds so know there engines). Do you think it could also be ambient temperature or fuel quality related?
My sincere thanks to Brian and Dave for taking the time to explain clearly and concisely the problem and solution. The benefit of your experience is priceless and it is generous of you to share with us.
I agree it does happen with these cars no denying that, but it seems what is being said ALL 355s will have ring washout and valve issues and need $25k rebuilds, basically that 355s are a POS. How many people on this site have posted they will not buy a 355 after reading threads like this one? Good explanation also on how the liners wear quickly.
Well I have yet to hear the whole story on the "wearing" cylinders. Is this caused by a defective cylinder or is every 355 cylinder out there subject to this premature wear? I also read alot on this post about "preventive" maintenence. Is there ANY maintence that can prevent this? I again read about "bad materials", is it bad materials or cylinder washing from bad injectors/o2 sensors? It is my understanding that the 355 cylinders are nikasil coated cast iron. Nikasil has proven itself to be a very wear resistant coating. So back to my first question is it defective coating or are "all" these cylinders prone? After reading this thread, the cylinder "problems" are still not clearly defined. Most are "individual examples" and not indicative of any "smoking gun" cause. I will try to list "some" causes that may contribute to this "phenomena" (IMO): 1. Are people loading the engine hard before proper warm up? (metals not expanded to ideal tolerances causing excessive wear) 2. Cars not started/driven regularly? (everytime the engine is started there is no oil on the cylinder walls & injectors get stuck/deposits causing poor fuel atomization in which "liquid" fuel washes the cylinder walls causing excessive wear again) 3. Oil not changed regularly? (every 6 months at least, not by miles. Since some owners put less than 1k miles a year ) I am certian that there is some logical reason as to why this happens. I would like to hear from as many as will post . So until then, I will second dave on this quote: "---that the 355 is the finest street going Ferrari ever put on the road. They have what I consider the perfect combination of weight, power, brakes, handling and size coupled with the right looks and sound." Long live the 355!!!!! ~~
Sounds like something a member of the "village people" would say! 355 owners have no reason to over compensate by drinking "mens coffee"!
To date it is quite uncommon to find washed out / heavily worm cylinders in our area. In an area like Ca where the cars are driven year around things show up far sooner than where we store them for half a year. When I see cylinder wear it is on one or 2 holes and makes my job far easier to do failure analysis. Almost always it comes back to it be the effect of driving the cars with the above mentioned problems for a great while. I do not see this as a failure of the engine, I see it as a problem that could have been prevented had the origional cause of the failure been adressed earlier (guides, headers, etc...). I am coming to this conclution due to the fact in this area I am only running into isolated cases and almost all of them can be linked to an earlier failure of another component. The 355's were the first of the mega powerful cars that would rev like a bandit stone cold and folks do it! No the oil is not changed regulary. I prefer them to all get an oil change in the fall and sit the winter out with clean oil but that is rare. Running rich from either factory problems (headers, guides) or owner created situations (ECU chips, hanging on the rev limiter....) The real answer is I do not know yet as there is not enough data or miles on the cars in our area. I can say there have been 40K mile 355's that I have serviced with under 10% leak down (tested cold) across the board that are still virgin. Hell, we dont even know why the guides go bad in some of the cars and not others. I believe Brian pegged it with his thought that some go out the door at the factory loose from the get go. Dave
I have found that these threads produce very valuable info about all Ferrari's, but my question is why this product line suffers these issues for such low production numbers. With all the cars I have owned, I have never dealt with valve guide issues, piston issues, and all the heavy mechanical issues mentioned herein. As a matter of fact I have never had done any major engine work including a 733 BMW with 262,000 miles. So, great white fathers, can it be explained why Ferrari cars suffer these ills?
Well referencing post #136 dave says "To date it is quite uncommon to find washed out / heavily worm cylinders in our area. In an area like Ca where the cars are driven year around things show up far sooner than where we store them for half a year. When I see cylinder wear it is on one or 2 holes and makes my job far easier to do failure analysis. Almost always it comes back to it be the effect of driving the cars with the above mentioned problems for a great while." After reasding this thread, this "problem" seems to be over dramatized IMO. Is it possible that the east coast air (salty) has something to do with it?
i don't read anywhere that someone said all or most 355's have these issues. Just enough to show a pattern and a concern. In fact, in this thread, it seems everybody can't believe the op's car could have a problem since so many 355's go over 100k trouble free. I think your a little too sensitive about the car you own.
wetpet it is the above quotes J.P.Sarti is referencing. After reading rifles quote above it almost sounds like doomsday is just around the corner for "many" 355s
If this was the case, then Southern Calfornia F355's would have a very high failure rate from scented hair gel. JM
Exactly, this and other similar threads about this issue gives the impression 355s are ticking time bombs. Quite honestly if I didn't own a 355 and did much research on them before I bought mine I would steer clear of them as well from all the negativity on this site by some about the car mechanically.
I stayed away from a 355 because of the negative comments. Looking for a 360 to go along with the 328 now.
The scented hair gel issue for the F355 doesn't show up on the 360 because most of the owners are balding. kidding, sorry, I couldn't help it. JM
Do the mechanics who have posted in this thread, whom I have the utmost respect for, recommend doing the valve seats at a minimum, and guides and valves as needed with a TRUE 30 K service (not the "3 year" service)? The cost is some head gaskets, and some labor and parts as necessary. Not sure if the head bolts are reusable. In the world of Ferrari, this is almost another "while you're at it" type of thing. I mean, as absurd as it is to pull the whole engine out, it is just a teeeeny bit more work to ensure 40 nice clean valves and nice tight guides. Thanks for all the advice, and now I am out to the garage to clean the bugs off the F-car after drining 244 miles yesterday. Maybe I'll start it up and rev it a little bit too. JM
I think your statements / questions might be showing part of the problem with the model. First off there is nothing absurd about pulling the engine to do the service. The way the drive train comes out as a package so the entire drive unit can be serviced, checked and maintained both properly and easily is genius. This is race car technology put into a street car and done quite well at that. Spend some time looking at the design of the whole rear cage, little needs to be done to bring it to full race standards. 1) yet to see any problem with the valve seats 2) Leak down and compression tests prior to pulling the engine for a major will tell you what needs to be done, if anything. Pulling the intake plentiums and taking a look at the back of the intake valves to monitor the carbon build up is something I do as well. This will tell you the condition of the stem seals. 3) No head bolts, studs and nuts. The torque procedure is critical and must be followed to the letter (I spent many hours testing every known lubricant / antiseize / thread paste looking for one that would give consistant torques on the head studs and rod bolts at FNA's request yrs back) watching for weak studs. J.P., My personal experiances with the 355 differ from Brians but he see's cars that are used year around, I do not. Brians word is Golden in my book, all we need to do is find what was the cause on each case of failure. We get paid to fix cars, not to be a failure analysis lab. That comes at a great cost of time and effort to the tech but free for you here. You have no idea how much time Brian and I have into tracking causes and trying to find preventive fixes simply to save owners money in the long run. In my book, no single person has done more to help Ferrari owners on this site than Brian and that help is coming from one of the most tallented techs I have ever known. Discussing problems found on a model is a critical part of failure analysis. What we have here is a politician and a technician, water and oil, they just dont mix. The power to displacement ratio was ground breaking technoligy when the car came out. Ferrari built a bomb proof crankshaft, titainum rods, excellent pistons, proven block design, .... The head design was tested on the F50's for road use (F1 designed) and found to work well, the hydraulic cam follower have proven 100% reliable and effective, the cam design is incredible, piston cooling jets that also oiled the walls and wrist pin quite nicely and on and on. Ferrari did screw up on the headers by not estimating properly the effects of running the exhaust temps so high. The Cats were the best available at the time but not good enough. The valve guides, well, ? I still fabricate all of the guides I use in every race engine I build using 642 hardened bronze. I do not know which Bronze alloy Ferrari used but it took years for them to give up on the Naval Bronze the used in the 250 engines. Now step back and look how we have treated the package given to us. How many properly warm them up, waiting for 10+ min's of driving at a good oil temp showing before reving the snot out of them? How about cooling down periods after a hard drive? Oil changes? Pulling fuel tanks to slide belts on with no thought of cam timing (I have been beat up enough on the cam timing issues, I am done with that topic)? Chipping them to raise the rev's higher. Running the cars with leaking exhaust headers or plugged / broken cats (everyone hears a different sound but is it adressed imeadiatly?) The Motronic was designed for a very precise operating window to achive this power. How many wire open the exhaust bypass valve for more noise? Figure this was programed into the Motronic? Some use Scotch Lock connectors into the wiring harness to install HiFi systems that draw more amps than the alternator even puts out. Answer the questions and then look in the mirror. Did Ferrari do everything right? Nope! Did every car leave the factory with the cam timing set to plus or minus 1 degree? No way in Hell! Is everyone treating the car as it should be? Please, read the threads and you answer it. Servicing the car properly with preventitive maintaince in mind? Next time your engine is out look at the coolant temp sensor connectors (the ones that tell the Motronic how much fuel to dump in). Removing all the sensor plugs and cleaning / replacing terminals is not on the list of required things on a major so any tech doing it is milking the job for more money. How many threads have you seen on " I did my own major service in 14 hrs, so your tech screwed you". Did he really? The coolant temp sensor plugs are one of hundreds of seemingly senseless, time wasting, price gouging things that did not get done at 98% of the majors on 355's. How do I know? You guess, just how cheap do you really want to maintain these cars and whos fault is it when engines fail? Whats the value of knowledge, you decide. Think the 360 is failure free? POS? No way, genius in design. What were the answers the the questions and what did you see in the mirror? Enough for me, these two fingers are worn out and I have a hay trailer to unload yet. Dave
Brian, you are exactly right. Now that I'm looking for a 355, a month or so ago I contacted a couple of dealers in CA(where the car was located) about doing a PPI and was told they no longer do these anymore. I was just in DC looking at another car, and I was there while this whole thread was in the making and I have to wonder if they end up deciding not to do any more PPIs. A EXTREMELY valuable service that we will in the future, no longer be able to get.
You may consider it bashing but then again you are one of the ones that steadfastly refuses to admit any of these problems ever happen. In the 2 poles I am aware of here 25% or so of those that chose to respond (and that is a small percentage of 355 owners) said they were aware of a valve job having been performed on their car. How many had them that were unaware? How many will need them in the future as the fleet of 355s gets older? A large percentage of the cars still don't have 40k miles. I don't know about you but I consider 25% a huge percentage and people like you still choose to deny it and you bash good honest dealers for pointing out what a car needs. Who is bashing what? I have talked about this topic twice in recent times only to be attacked by people like you that choose to keep their heads in the sand, and I do it all in the name of full disclosure for prospective owners. All too often I see another individual shopping for a 355 and see a number of your like come out of the wood work assuring the shopper the car is bulletproof. It is not. That is not to say (and I never have) there are not good reasons to want one despite those known weaknesses. Just be honest. Dave and I are some of the people that have to deal with owners every day that have fallen victim to your special kind ignorance and dishonesty. That is why I speak up. If I just wanted to cash in I would keep my mouth shut and let poeple fall unknowingly into the traps your type set. It would be very lucrative. A number of my clients have 355's and love them despite knowing full well the downsides. And almost to a person they are hard core car guys with a great deal of ownership experience in exotic sports cars. Their love of the car is proof to me that they have found the car worth while. But at the same time I have had quite a number in the last 11 years that will not own a Ferrari again. The difference? One group knew what they were getting into, the other did not. By trying to cover up the cars shortcomings you do far more damage to it's reputation than all the truth in the world. In this particular case you and others went after a good, honest, reputable car dealer doing their job and nay sayers like you called them by inference, thieves. And you sit there and call me a basher. If you think I am spreading disinformation you will need another trial. My case has been proven and adjudicated.
