BTW----You guys have met at Darron's Crab Deck event---That is all!!
After reading 175 posts, I am reminded once again of why PM is a good thing. To many have grown up with Hondas and Buicks that just ran everyday you turned the key, and without any real maintenence. GM has sold the nation on 100K tuneups, plug changes, 15,000 mile oil changes with sewing machine oil. Not a big deal really, thier engines barely produce 1 HP for every 2 cubic inch, its not like they work very hard. So these same dumbed down people buy themselves a real car, but go about treating it like a stupid old Buick, and then cant figure out why its broken at 30,000 miles. Its a Ferrari! Its using state of the art Formula One racing technology and making it into a road car. Doing that on a low production basis is not only expensive, its very difficult. And truly, anything built with that complexity and level of performance is going to need more service. You cant very well compare the 355 to the 348 by saying the 355 is more trouble prone, its a whole level higher in both complexity and performance. And its obvious Ferrari really pushed the edge of the envelope with this car. But thats why its so desirable, and also why its both expensive to buy, and expensive to own. Thirty odd years ago it was not uncommon to give a car a valve job at 50K miles. And that was with low powered slow turning engines. The Haynes manual on the MG had all kinds of rediculous maintenence to do on that car, and I doubt anyone in thier right mind did one third of any of it. someone always cuts corners somewhere, but when the dust settles wonders what happened. The very fact a 355 can make it 50K miles without any major work, and provide that level of performance says everything as to how well its made.
"Tell me how that is an attack on FoW? Their price to do the work was / is 2-3x more than two independants I have spoken with. What, are we not allowed to question the prices of a car dealer? Are you the great protector of Ferrari and its' franchises?" Wrote a longish reply, then deleted it. Here's what I see in this thread: What you seemed to be doing was not questioning FoW's prices, but rather questioning their honesty: "licking their chops?" Come on - the clear suggestion is that you dodged an attempted ripoff. Other posters questioned FoW's integrity without any direct knowledge of the facts at hand or the dealership in general. As I wrote in my prior post, I have extensive direct knowledge of FoW and consider many of FoW's folks to be friends, including the owner. If I were in their shoes, I'd be extremely angry at the suggestion that I'd manufactured PPI results to sell service work, or to kill a third party deal and steer the buyer to my inventory ... questioning someone's ethics without facts is defamation, isn't it?
So, I would like to know why a valve job costs $25k??? That was the quote from FoW.... These are v-8's, and not very highly stressed ones at that. I have 1200hp blower motors in my boat that get more use and strain and require valve jobs at 200hrs.... at a whopping cost of $1700 per set with new 5 angle cut, reseating and seals. Why the hell would a F car cost 6 times that much??? You guys are so used to getting bent over by the Ferrari service department that you dont even question this stuff. I do! Its farking BS. There are many qualified service people out there that are not FNA shops that can do this job, and well for substantially less $$.
In addition to paul's comments (which are good by the way) those engines 30 yrs ago would have to be redone every 50,000 also. I would bet once you fix the valve and header problems on a 355 with correct parts you will have an engine that will easily go past a 100,000 miles. Maybe you shouldn't have had those problems in the first place but should they have had those problems 30 yrs ago? Technology then was advanced enough to have made valve rotators on the chevy heads to stop valve burning but they didn't do that, everyone was used to redoing there heads long before 100,000 miles. At least now when the 2 problems are fixed on the 355 they are fixed. Regards, Vern
I don't think anyone is implying FOW was malicious in trying to sell a $25k rebuild just maybe some mistakes were made or things not done thorough enough, a motor with bad valve guides is going to burn oil, a simple GA test pre cat will show high HCs and confirm the leakdown which was not done here. Some may consider certain dealers their best buddy but they are in business to make money, mechanics get paid on the jobs as well, anyone can be taken advantage of and of course they will treat you like gold with what they charge for some of these jobs, one dealer wanted 10hrs at $120 an hour to align my BBs 4 wheels because I lowered it supposedly, went to a local Goodyear that was familar with exotics and they charged me $150, you bet they would treat me well if I payed $1200 for normal things such as alignments and other simple services regularly
I can whole heartedly confirm what Jody is saying about his concern for the buyer. I have never met Jody but sure hope to someday. He conducted himself to a level higher than any seller I have delt with in a great while. I think the first post where the "licking" statement was made was a simple expression of frustration. Everyone here knows how difficult it is to express a feeling in writing and often we all cringe a little after we re-read what we wrote. A good example is my post on modifications. I mod the hell out of these cars, I build race cars as well as repairing street cars. The point I tried to make is long term reliabilty must be considered with any changes but in trying to make that point I failed. Jody had nothing but good to say regarding all parties mentioned here, in our conversation. I think he did a good job early on attempting to explain his initial statement, at least it satisfied me and I am one that could take it personally as I am in the business. As these cars have little to do with transportation and are much about passion we all tend to agrue a point accordingly. As stated earlier, Brian and I deal with this situation on a daily basis. No one feels it coming, it runs "perfectly", and then some geek tells you it needs what, for how much? No room for thin skin in this business as usually the customers initial reply reads like the lyrics of a Country song, and NO, my wife, dogs and horses are still here. Re-read Jody's initial post, his car was given a clean bill of health from a reputable dealer and he was selling it armed with that knowledge. The questions were valid given that knowledge. The instant it was suggested otherwise he did the right thing (I also spoke with the potential buyer Steve and he confirmed this) and returned the deposit. One can't ask for anything more than that. I suggested Steve hang around as he could still get one heck of a nice car when repairs are done. Dave
I'm supposed to know all the things you were doing on the side? I'm responding to a thread. if I don't know about it, i don't talk about it. i think myself and many others have made our opinion clear about what you said in your original post, i think everybody gets it. the post that seems to get you hot is the one about your car falsely advertised on ebay as needing nothing. i know you don't have time to make one post clearing up the thread you started, now you have plenty of time to give me crap about my posts. like i said before that auction was active when i made my posts. now it's not. i'm sure you going to get around to it anyway. i still have not had you or anybody else tell me why i'm wrong for challenging your fow bashing thread or posting your ebay auction. because you were behind the scenes? how am i supposed to know that? i guess we will have to just disagree. now that everyone knows the whole story, it's dead.
the exact problem with this whole thread. i don't see why you don't get it. where was it said that fow made mistakes and weren't thorough enough? why do you keep posting this? i know you try to cover yourself by saying "maybe" but your still poisoning the well. this is the problem with these threads and the people who start them and the people that jump in later with bs.
You clearly don't know enough about the mechanics of cars to understand why the results did not add up, I posted my reasons why the results should be questioned.
I have posted many times what my opinion is in this thread of the test they did on this car and what also could have been done to confirm the results
for the record, in case anyone missed it. Jody listed his car on ebay AFTER he knew about it's problems. Describing it as "needing nothing". After starting this thread. I pointed this out. he removed the listing and explains he was trying to get the work done before the car sold in 7 days, after i posted. I'll buy that explanation. This is pissing people off around here? I'm a troll? These are public records available to anyone on the internet. I brought to the attention of this thread because this thread is about that car.
you are correct, i don't know much about the mechanics, that's why i defer to the real mechanics on this board. they have spoken, you should listen.
So you know little to nothing about the mechanics of cars let alone 355s yet passed judgement the seller is up to something and FOW would never made a mistake doing a PPi or repair simply because they are great guys and are your friends?
i deal with facts. don't have any facts that fow did anything but what is right and reasonable. i didn't pass judgement either. certainly have never said that fow or anybody else would never make a mistake. that is the game you play. i did not originally judge jody's actions, i posted "what do you guys think?" i wanted to see what the people debating this situation thought of him immediately putting his car on ebay the way he did. it's a fact that jody started this thread and then listed his car on ebay. those are facts i posted. i don't claim to have all the facts. evidently, much has been going on behind the scenes i am not privy too. i only have one freind at fow. my posts are not related to him, they are of a general nature related to posts like this where bs and inflammatory stuff is thrown around about a biz. i own a biz myself and have been a target of this kind of forum bashing. I would say the same things about a biz i have no knowledge of. please post some facts. not all your insinuations. almost every post, you insinuate something about someone. your statement above, not an opinion, that i passed judgement that fow has never made a mistake on a ppi is a shining example. i suppose i might have passed judgement on what jody was up to based on the fact that he put his car up on ebay the way he did. i am willing to give him the benifit of the doubt after he explained it and posted so.
you say this test was not done. I don't know how you know that. i didn't see that stated. maybe i missed it. Let's ask jody directly. Did fow perform this test? if so, what were the results and why didn't you post them? sarti, would you feel stupid if you found out this test was performed and you falsely stated here it was not?
Yes, i can take constructive critisizm. When you type with two fingers like me, it's just to much effort to much effort to hold that shift key down. Just don't ask me to start spelling things correctly.
No additional test was performed by FoW as part of the PPI. Additional diagnostics have been performed by a third party. This is my last post on the matter and it is of no concern to WetPet, unless you are interested in purchasing the car. The only person who should feel stupid right now is you. Move on.
my argument is with sarti. he said fow did not perform this test on your car. he must have heard that from someone. i can't believe he would be stupid enough to state that as a fact unless he had proof. so your saying fow did not perform a hydrocarbon test on your car? just want to make sure i'm clear. it is a concern to me when people post negative things about me on an open forum.
An interesting read that i copyed and pasted from "flatoutracing", regarding valve guides on a 355, for thouse who have not seen it. Heres the link, http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5554&highlight=bronze+valve+guides 1995 Valve Guides…….Fact vs. Fiction For the most part Ferrarichat has been an immense benefit to me while owning my two Ferraris. However, in the past year or so, I have seen a propensity for people to make claims simply restating what someone else has said but not actually checking to see if the information is correct. What is particularly alarming to me is the amount of technical information that gets posted on this site that upon further review is totally inaccurate. Even more alarming is that it keeps getting recycled by more and more people and then becomes gospel. Most of you have probable noticed that I rarely get into technical debates. I am kind of like Tom Cruise in “Days of Thunder”….I just drive the damn thing. I barely know a spark plug from a drain plug and when some of you start talking about volumetric efficiency I am pretty much lost. But some of the posts are so inaccurate that it’s clear to anyone that some of you haven’t a clue what you are talking about. It’s ok to have an opinion that 360’s are ugly, or that a true Ferrari has 12 cylinders in the front of the car, or that the F50 looks too soft or so on and so on. However some of you, many who don’t even own a Ferrari or the particular car in question, seem to have a propensity to re-inforce totally inaccurate information you have heard from others without even checking to see if it’s valid info. What am I referring to…………………1995 F355’s and the issue of valve guides. For the past three years I have seen many posts from people on the issue of valve guides on 1995 355’s. As most of you know I just recently sold my 1995 Challenge, which at one time was a streetcar. The valve guide issue became a serious issue in selling my car. Some people flat out refused to even consider my car, despite the fact that it had no valve guide problem at all, while others discounted their offers by anything ranging from $2000-$7000 because of this issue. I had one interested buyer tell me that he was given advice on Ferrarichat not to ever consider a 1995 model year 355 even if records showed the valve guides had been replaced because some dealers have lied about the work being done. In the end I was able to show several interested parties that my car in fact had no such problem at all. The car had nearly perfect leakdown results (6-8% on cylinders 1-7 and 10% on cylinder 8). I also provided service records from day one (12/94) that showed no excessive oil consumption. A car exhibiting valve guide wear would burn oil and show excessively bad leakdown numbers. I am absolutely amazed at the overblown hype on this issue and the amount of misinformation some of you spread on the Internet, some who don’t even own a Ferrari. I thought in order to clear some things up I would present my findings on the subject as over the past month I have spent close to 20-30 hours researching the issue speaking to people both within FNA, the factory in Italy and other outside sources. I spoke with everyone, ranging from FNA’s technical director, 4 different crew chiefs on 2 different dealer Challenge teams who ran 355 C’s, to the head of engine design for the 355 at Ferrari SPA in Italy (through an interpreter), as well as the 355 production manager there as well (he spoke English). In addition, a very highly respected Ferrarichat member on this board who worked on several Challenge teams for over 9 years and personally oversaw a few 95 Challenge cars, also confirmed what my findings were. Myth #1: All 1995 F355 have valve guide issues and need their original valve guides replaced Fact: Completely false. According to FNA technical director Adam Williams, only about 20% of all 95-model year 355’s experienced excessive valve guide wear and needed them replaced. And in fact, about half way through the 1995 model year the factory changed over to a different type of valve guide (the ones that they replaced the old ones with on the early cars). Myth #2: Some have stated that since the valve guides were not sintered (formed and hardened by heat and pressure) then accelerated wear will also be seen later. Fact: FNA confirmed that this has never ever been an issue. The problem stemmed from improper seating of the guides and if no problem occurred early on then it will not be a problem in the future other than normal wear associated with running the car. PERIOD, END OF STORY! Myth #3: Valve guide issues can occur at any time during the life of the car and are more prone to experience these issue in higher mileage cars. Fact: According to the Ferrari factory in Italy and re-affirmed by Adam Williams, 90% of the valve guide issue occurred almost immediately or within the first two years of ownership. The few that have occurred in higher mileage cars cannot be confirmed to have happened at a specific point in time and likely could have been present for quite some time. Certainly the older valve guides may wear out faster but they don’t go from being in good shape to wearing out overnight. Myth #4. This is only a US problem due to the high sulpha content in our fuel and that Euro cars had different valve guides. Fact: Sorry but totally false. It was a small problem on Euro cars as well and the gas issue is inaccurate. Myth #5: Valve guide issues were only present on 95 models. Fact: Also false. Even with the newer valve guides post 95 production 355’s problems arose. A bad batch of valve guides found it’s way into several 97’s and at least two 98 355’s. Ferrari of Washington alone had two 97’s and one 98 355 that had valve guide issues discovered when each of those cars had higher than normal oil consumption. Myth #6: If the valve guides were changed on a 355 by the dealer then there must have been a problem. In other words why would the dealers change them free of cost if there wasn’t a problem. Fact: The amount of disinformation being spread in the past few years made it impossible for dealers to move 95 model year 355’s, even ones that had later production dates and didn’t even contain the old style valve guides. FNA finally decided to have all early production 95’s changed over even if there were no problems. Myth 7: Only 95 model year cars had any engine problems. Fact: I have already mentioned a bad batch of guides in other production year models but in addition some 96 and early 97’s cars had connecting rod failures (issues with the connecting rod bolts). There are also a few 98 specific engine related problems. It amazes me how much inaccurate information on this issue is repeated by people many of whom, neither own a 355, have any experience with them, or don’t even own a Ferrari or have never worked on them. Because half a dozen people claim something is valid doesn’t make it so. Remember 99.9% of the population at one time believed the earth was flat. Regards, Jon P. Kofod www.flatoutracing.net FLATOUTRACING View Public Profile Send a private message to FLATOUTRACING Send email to FLATOUTRACING Find all posts by FLATOUTRACING Add FLATOUTRACING to Your Buddy List #2
