News

Engine Types...

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by 134282, Jul 23, 2009.

  1. 134282

    134282 Four Time F1 World Champ
    BANNED

    Aug 3, 2002
    40,647
    California
    Full Name:
    Carbon McCoy
    #1 134282, Jul 23, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I'm trying to determine Ferrari engine types, but conflicting information has led me seek factual proof. The only problem is, engine types are seldom documented beyond the stampings cast into the engine blocks. So I've photographed some stampings, but I don't have photographic proof of all engine types. Here's where you come in. :) Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

    Photos below show:

    F140C: 599
    F131B: 360 (Modena, Spider, Challenge); I also have this same engine type for the Challenge Stradale, but I imagine that's not accurate
    F136 E: F430 (coupe, Spider)
    F136ED: 430 Scuderia, Scuderia Spider 16M
    F133 A: 550 Barchetta
    F119D: Mondial t (I've also heard of F119D040)
    F113D040: 512 TR
    F113A040: Testarossa
    F113 G: F512 M
    F113A: Testarossa
    F114: GTO (I've also heard of F114A and F114B)
    F130B: F50
    F110A: 512 BBi
    F140B: Enzo
    F113A046: Testarossa

    Engines types for which I have no photographic proof:

    F106A and F106AE: 308 GTB and 308 GTS
    F106AS: 308 GTS
    F102B: 512 BB
    F101C: 400i 5-Speed and Automatic
    F102A: 365 GT/4 BB
    F106AB: 308 GTB
    F106BB: 308 GTSi and 308 GTBi
    F106B: Mondial 8
    F105A: Mondial QV Coupe
    F105AS: Mondial QV Cabriolet (why does the Cabriolet have a different engine type than the coupe...?)
    F105AB: 308 GTS QV (also have F105E040 and F105C040).
    F105CB: 328 GTB and 328 GTS
    F122A: 3.2 Mondial Cabriolet
    F120A: F40; (F120D is apparently a Euro F40 with cats) I also have F120B (for F40 LMs only?)
    F119G: 348 (ts, tb, Spider, Serie Speciale); I also have F119G040
    F119H: 348 GTB and 348 GTS (according to Richard (Dr.T348) posted here)
    F116B: 456 GT and 456 GTA
    F129C: 355 (manuals and F1s, Berlinetta, GTS and Spider)
    F133A: 550 Maranello
    F116 CL: 456M GT
    F116C: 456M GTA
    F133 E: 575M Maranello and Superamerica (but I've heard of F133 G for Superamericas built for Switzerland)
    F133F: 612 Scaglietti (also have F133 H - anyone know about that...?)
    F149: California
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  2. To remove this ad click here.

  3. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    20,289
    Texas
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    #2 Steve Magnusson, Jul 23, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    You'll need some CIA software to make it legible ;), but here's one that you missed:

    F113B: Testarossa (Late euro KE-Jet without Lambda)
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  4. 134282

    134282 Four Time F1 World Champ
    BANNED

    Aug 3, 2002
    40,647
    California
    Full Name:
    Carbon McCoy
    Beautiful, thank you, Steve...! Can you shine some light on the Testarossas for me...? Why so many different engine types...? F113A, F113B, F113A040, F113A 046...? I imagine one is for the US (F113A040?), one is for Switzerland (F113A 046?), one is for Europe (F113B?)... Where are Brian Crall and Dave Helms and Spasso and Steve Magnusson...? :)

    Also, do you have a higher resolution version of that image...? If so, can you e-mail it to me...? 134282@gmail.com
     
  5. AceMaster

    AceMaster Three Time F1 World Champ

    Feb 6, 2009
    31,039
    Calling a penalty
    Full Name:
    Mike
  6. Papa Duck

    Papa Duck Formula Junior

    Jan 16, 2006
    351
    Las Vegas, NV
    Full Name:
    Carl
    #5 Papa Duck, Jul 23, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Well, this opens up an interesting situation for me. I have a 1981 308GTSi and the picture I took of the serial # when the engine was out two years ago shows F106B which you have listed for a Mondial 8. Now I need to see if this was the original engine.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  7. To remove this ad click here.

  8. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    20,289
    Texas
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    Nothing wrong with your engine (and its engine family designation) -- the 1981 N.A. (US) 308i-2V OM 216/81 shows that you should have F106B040
     
  9. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    20,289
    Texas
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    #7 Steve Magnusson, Jul 23, 2009
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2009
    Different markets, and they went thru some evolution as other markets started to adopt more stringent emission rules (in stages). Glad to pass on what I think I know ;), but there are some holes that I wouldn’t mind learning about too (so if someone knows, or has corrections, please speak up).

    I can say with some certainty:

    F113A or F113A000 = early standard (euro) TR, 9.2:1 CR, K-Jetronic without Lambda, no cats, no air injection

    F113A040 = all US version TR, 8.8:1 CR, KE-Jetronic with Lambda, with cats, and with belt-driven air injection

    F113B or F113B000 = late standard (euro) TR (introduced circa ’88 -- essentially the replacement for the F113A) = 9.3:1 CR, KE-Jetronic without Lambda, no cats, no air injection

    Now for the fuzzy (IMO) CH bits…

    …046 is consistently used as the CH (Swiss) version suffix, but I think they mangled some of the CH TR OMs:

    In the 392/85 CH TR OM supplement: F113A046 = early CH TR, 8.8:1 CR, KE-Jetronic, (no cats shown and no air injection shown -- but not sure about that).

    In the 467/87 CH TR OM supplement: it says F113B046, but I believe that this is an error as the compression ratio is still shown as 8.8:1, KE-Jetronic with Lambda, with cats, and with pulse air injection.

    In the 519/88 CH TR OM: it says F113B000, but I know that this is a mistake, again the CR is given as 8.8:1, KE-Jetronic with Lambda, with cats, and with belt-driven air injection.

    So my three questions for the CH TR guys would be:

    1. For a 1986, and earlier, CH TR -- does it have cats and/or air injection?

    2. For a 1987 CH TR -- Is the engine family F113A046, F113B046, or something else?

    3. For a 1988 and later CH TR -- Is the engine family F113A046 or something else?

    (Unfortunately, I don't have that picture in any higher resolution as it was just something that someone posted here.)
     
  10. 134282

    134282 Four Time F1 World Champ
    BANNED

    Aug 3, 2002
    40,647
    California
    Full Name:
    Carbon McCoy
    Steve, this post:
    ...and the one after it make it obvious that you're very knowledgeable. Thank you for sharing, and I hope you add more if you can.
     
  11. Papa Duck

    Papa Duck Formula Junior

    Jan 16, 2006
    351
    Las Vegas, NV
    Full Name:
    Carl
    Thanks for your comments. My mechanic stated the same thing. I didn't think that gthe engine had been changed, but not having all of the car's records back to the original owner I could never be too sure, especially with the history some of the early 2V injected engines had.
     
  12. To remove this ad click here.

  13. 134282

    134282 Four Time F1 World Champ
    BANNED

    Aug 3, 2002
    40,647
    California
    Full Name:
    Carbon McCoy
    Carl, do you have the car's original books...? Ferrari started printing the car's VIN and engine number inside of the warranty card years ago. Your car might pre-date this practice, but it doesn't hurt to look. In that manner, you can confirm irrevocably that the engine in your car is, indeed, the original engine.
     
  14. thecarreaper

    thecarreaper F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Sep 30, 2003
    16,450
    Savannah
    Full Name:
    I NEED A JOB
    #11 thecarreaper, Jul 25, 2009
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2009
    ok what is correct for a 308 GTB QV ? F105 or F106AB . you must have one hell of a database now Carbon, and its always growing! :)
     
  15. Telerding

    Telerding Formula Junior

    Sep 30, 2004
    362
    Santa Maria/CA
    Full Name:
    Tom Elerding
    My owner's manual says the motor type is "251" , no F and no trailing letter.

    Did Ferrari change their system around 1968??
     
  16. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    20,289
    Texas
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    What year and what version 308GTB QV?

    What is shown on your engine -- F105A, F105A000, F105A040, F105E040, or something else?
     
  17. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    20,289
    Texas
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    #14 Steve Magnusson, Jul 25, 2009
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2009
    Maybe a little later? 308 and after (not sure what a 206/246 uses)? I believe the vintage stuff (mainly) uses a three digit number system like your example (not sure if there are occasional special suffixes in some cases).
     
  18. thecarreaper

    thecarreaper F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Sep 30, 2003
    16,450
    Savannah
    Full Name:
    I NEED A JOB
    F105A, 1983 euro 308 GTB QV, April 1983 build, assembly number 54.

    thanks for any help!
     
  19. tatcat

    tatcat F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Sep 3, 2001
    8,504
    panama city beach FL
    Full Name:
    rick c
    where is the number located on the 85 qv?
     
  20. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    20,289
    Texas
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    #17 Steve Magnusson, Jul 25, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  21. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    20,289
    Texas
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    #18 Steve Magnusson, Jul 25, 2009
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2009
    I believe F105A is correct for all euro 308QV, and the "evolution" of the 3.0L QV sequence is/was:

    F105A = euro 3.0L QV

    Add the "040" (US) suffix for:
    F105A040 = 1983 US 3.0L QV -- although I'd like to see a real sample of this on an engine as some of the written documentation is in a little bit different form (F 105 A/40 or F 105 A 40 or F105040)

    Change the letter to "E" (emission) to account for the '84-'85 US changes (sort of similar to the late carbed US 308 which added a letter "E"):
    F105E040 = 1984-85 US 3.0L QV (as shown in the example in the prior post)
     
  22. 134282

    134282 Four Time F1 World Champ
    BANNED

    Aug 3, 2002
    40,647
    California
    Full Name:
    Carbon McCoy
    It's still in its infant stages - and will always be if I can't grasp the information people like Mr. Magnusson possess.

    Ferrari constantly changed stuff. But motor type 251 is correct for a Daytona - which appears in your avatar, during which 1968 was one of the years it was built - which I assume you own. If I owned a Daytona, I'd probably get the serial number and engine number (and type!) and assembly number and date of production tattooed on me somewhere.

    Hey, that's Mark's car, 50761, built in March, 1984. :)
     
  23. thecarreaper

    thecarreaper F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Sep 30, 2003
    16,450
    Savannah
    Full Name:
    I NEED A JOB
    #20 thecarreaper, Jul 26, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    thank you! mine says F105A *00508*
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  24. Wade

    Wade Three Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Mar 31, 2006
    32,194
    East Central, FL
    Full Name:
    Wade O.
    #21 Wade, Jul 26, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  25. miketuason

    miketuason F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Feb 24, 2006
    14,301
    Cerritos, CA.
    Full Name:
    Mike
    #22 miketuason, Jul 27, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  26. 134282

    134282 Four Time F1 World Champ
    BANNED

    Aug 3, 2002
    40,647
    California
    Full Name:
    Carbon McCoy
    Mike, thank you. Is that assembly number 40 or 540...?

    Also, I have two cars associated with you - cars on which you've provided information: Your friend's car (52263, 8/84), an '84 QV (GTB? GTS?) and 52605, an '84 European GTB QV, built in November, 1984, with engine number 02295. The engine number you've provided - is that for 52263...? Seems a little low, but the engine number that I have for 52605 could be incorrect.

    Lastly, I have engine number 00040 with a Testarossa (54635) - which is obviously incorrect (unless someone made a mistake when stamping one of the engines). As far as I know, simultaneously running sets of engine numbers weren't assigned to different models or different model years for different models (like contemporary body numbers and vintage and classic assembly numbers). If I'm wrong, I'd love some clarification.
     
  27. 134282

    134282 Four Time F1 World Champ
    BANNED

    Aug 3, 2002
    40,647
    California
    Full Name:
    Carbon McCoy
    Thanks, Wade...! I saw this car at T. Rutland's annual picnic in April, 2006; black with red leather, black mats with red prancing horses, and the owner told me that it was originally sold new to a Prince in the Middle East. Was that you I spoke to, or did someone else own it some three years ago...?
     
  28. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    33,574
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    Carbon- The Challenge Stradale engine type is F131F. All 575 Superamerica engines are type F133G. The 612 engine was actually developed before the 575 SA engine and is, as you stated, type F133F.

    This information comes from the Owner's Manuals, but you have to be careful and use the engine spec page, because the data plates image on the 575 SA was lifted directly from the 575M manual and incorrectly shows F133E.

    In keeping with an unfortunate trend to less and less technical information in the OMs, the 599 OM does not even have general engine information, no engine type, and very little other technical info.

    Taz
    Terry Phillips
     

Share This Page