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F-40 Classiche Certification - Is It Essential?

Discussion in '288GTO/F40/F50/Enzo/LaFerrari' started by 512Tea Are, Dec 16, 2007.

  1. 512Tea Are

    512Tea Are F1 Rookie

    Apr 22, 2004
    2,742
    Dear Gentleman Comrades,

    With the propensity for modifications to various parts of the F-40, be it engine, transmission, bodywork, wheels, seats, different steering wheels or the myriad of things that have happened to many cars. Will the Classiche Certification programme offer salvation to the Ferraristii keen to acquire an F-40 but possessed with hardly a smidgen of knowledge of what an original F-40 should be like? For example, some F-40's have been fitted with a Plexiglass screen that has a third row of vents. Others have had upgraded engines. Many more have been fitted with all manner of componentry that differs from original. Accordingly, would not the Classiche Certification programme be beneficial to such a prospective owner? Surely, it would be wouldn't it? If not, then why wouldn't it be?

    May I state that I am not an expert but do rely upon expert opinions in most of my decisions in life. Furthermore I performed extensive research over many years on F-40's and found it inordinately difficult to acquire a good quality unmolested example. My task would have been hugely facilitated had the Classiche Certification programme been available at that time. And yes, I do know of three individuals who have acquired motor cars which they believed were original but later transpired not to be so.

    A highly experienced technician examined cars for me all of which were purported to have bomb proof providence. Many costly flights and survey fee's caused me to become exceedingly sensitive to descriptions proffered by vendors, and whom, even themselves were unaware of the peculiarities of their motor cars. So for myself, and perhaps many like me, who are not experts, the Classiche Certification programme provides a large degree of comfort in enabling a prospective purchaser to rely on the integrity of what is placed before them . . . . . . AN F-40 IS AN EXCEEDINGLY EASY CAR TO MAKE LOOK STUNNING

    With Warm Seasonal Greeting From England.

    512 Tea Are
     
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  3. Edward 96GTS

    Edward 96GTS F1 Rookie
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    Nov 1, 2003
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    512 Tea Are,
    I agree with your sentiments, however, as stated earlier, the certificate is most valuable during the short perod of time from aquisition to transfer of title.
    Regards,

    Ed
     
  4. 512Tea Are

    512Tea Are F1 Rookie

    Apr 22, 2004
    2,742
    Dear Comrade Gentleman Edward96GTS,

    Yes, I do understand this. But, it would be so simple to have the car transported to a dealer and have its integrity confirmed. This would not necessitate a full re-certification survey.

    Surely to goodness anyone can see that the Classiche Certification is of inordinate assistance with the acquisition of a car that has not been molested and buggered about with by every Tom, Dick and Harry. It removes a substantial element of doubt.

    I am doing my absolute best endeavours here to assist any prospective purchaser of an F-40. And I say again . . . . A GOOD F-40 IS AN INORDINATELY DIFFICULT THING TO ACQUIRE - VERY, VERY DIFFICULT INDEED.

    With Warm Seasonal Greetings From England.

    512 Tea Are
     
  5. Edward 96GTS

    Edward 96GTS F1 Rookie
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    Nov 1, 2003
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    512 Tea Are,
    If the car is going back to the dealer for a "reinspection", then what is the purpose of the initial cert by the original owner? I doubt the dealer is going to treat this any differently than an initial inspection. Hence, the recert may cost the same as the initial cert.
    Ed
     
  6. 512Tea Are

    512Tea Are F1 Rookie

    Apr 22, 2004
    2,742
    Dear Gentleman Comrade Edward 96GTS,

    This is not how it works at all. The whole thing is designed to assist the Ferrari ownership. I do wonder why people buy Ferrari's when they are often seemingly so horrendously prejudiced again the manufacturer. We should all simply accept that Ferrari have every intention of making a profit. And yes, of course thay are intending to make a profit from the Classiche Certification programme also. But for myself, I would not acquire a Ferrari, and most particularly a Ferrari F-40 unless it had Classiche Certification.

    With Warm Seasonal Greetings From England.

    512 Tea Are
     
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  8. 512Tea Are

    512Tea Are F1 Rookie

    Apr 22, 2004
    2,742
    Dear Gentlemen Comrades,

    There has been no posts on this thread for one hour.

    Accordingly this surely must be the conclusive evidence that all F-40 pilots should be certified. The only thing that surprises me is that RufMD hasn't gotten in on it already. Therefore, comrade RufMD, I am perfectly prepared to take on the mantle of your personal certification manager with regard to F-40 owners being certified. Joe Sackey and myself have already been certified - but there are plenty more out there requiring it :)

    With Warm Seasonal Greetings From England,

    512 Tea Are
     
  9. RufMD

    RufMD F1 Rookie
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    Jan 31, 2004
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    Graham, to ease your restlessness I assure you I will look into the matter at the next scheduled major service, due sometime next year at a time yet to be chosen. Although what purpose it will have on a car that has little chance of being sold I've yet to determine....I suspect it will need several recertifications of the original certification during my ownership tenure. Its recent concours showings indicate to me a definitive level of acceptance as a "proper" F40, but maybe photographic interpretation by the Italian Gods may shed new light on the subject...

    all the best
     
  10. Edward 96GTS

    Edward 96GTS F1 Rookie
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    Nov 1, 2003
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    512 Tea Are,
    You are absolutely correct. There is no need for Certification until it is "conditionally" accepted/acquired by the new/prospective owner. Consider it just an extension of a well performed PPI.
    Regards,
    Ed
     
  11. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    The question of the day. Pray tell...

    Joe
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  13. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    It never ceases to amaze me that those who rail against Ferrari (or anyone else for that matter!) making a profit, are in the unenviable position of being able to afford a Ferrari because they make a profit in their own business!!!

    Oh my, the irony of it all.

    Preach the word Graham. Mark my words, there are owners who are currently not positive about Classiche Certification who will then proceed to obtain same. Id love to read some of these posts 5 or 10 years from now :)

    Joe
    www.joesackey.com
     
  14. 410SA

    410SA F1 Veteran

    Nov 2, 2003
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    Why do you not understand the massive difference between the idea of a useless service (Classiche certification) and the Ferrari organization itself? It is clearly possible to be against a useless, rip-off service that provides nothing to anybody, as all of the loopholes that have been posted here attest, while being for the company and its tangible products like cars, parts and sundry licensed merchandise. You are trying to make a case that everybody who doesn't agree with the concept of Classiche Certification therefore hates Ferrari. This is almost Nazi like in its emotional appeal (meaning the way the Nazis acted in the late 30's and early 40's. Not that you are being called a Nazi, because I'm sure you would love to post to the world that I called you a Nazi, which, for the record, I am certain you are not). The Bush Administration also uses this tactic sometimes -"You are either with us or you are against us!!!"
    Either you are more asinine than is normally evident, or you have some nefarious hidden agenda. Are you angling to become an authorized dealer? Are you an agent earning a commission for every Classiche Certification you encourage and sell? Or do you just think that than by being so obsequious to the masters of the domain you will somehow earn special favor?
    Enough people have posted here to make it evident that Classiche certification is valid for about one nanosecond, and that the holder of such certification can immediately move to do unspeakable things (in Classiche certification terms) to his car without penalty and still claim have a certified car. It won't take too long for the general populace to understand this and totally discredit the whole circus of certification.
    None of this however changes the esteem and admiration with which Ferrari and its products are generally thought of by the people who own Ferraris and by those who love the brand, the cars and everything else to do with the cars. I love Ferraris, I love the company and I do a lot of business with them. I am even a stockholder of their parent company, but I think the Classiche Certification process is a joke and I have told them so.
     
  15. Aedo

    Aedo F1 Rookie

    Feb 22, 2006
    3,616
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    Dear Comrade 512 Tea Are,

    I must say I breathed a sigh of relief to read that you have, indeed, been certified!

    Kind regards,
    Aedo



    :p

    PS: are you still considering bringing the F-40 with you to Australia?
     
  16. 512Tea Are

    512Tea Are F1 Rookie

    Apr 22, 2004
    2,742
    Dear Comrade Aedo,

    Yes, I have indeed been fully certified! It has taken such an inordinate time for me to realise that 'being certified' would appear not to have the connotation of lunacy within The United States of America that prevails within this realm and indeed seemingly in Australia :)

    And yes, the illustrious F-40 may well arrive in Australia - but first I shall have to send it to Pinin Farina for the right hand drive conversion.

    Happy Seasonal Greetings From England.

    With kind regards,

    512 Tea Are
     
  17. subirg

    subirg F1 Rookie

    Dec 19, 2003
    3,739
    Cheshire
    Interesting - so would conversion to RHD be possible within the rules of Certification?
     
  18. WCH

    WCH F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Mar 16, 2003
    5,179
    "Enough people have posted here to make it evident that Classiche certification is valid for about one nanosecond, and that the holder of such certification can immediately move to do unspeakable things (in Classiche certification terms) to his car without penalty and still claim have a certified car."


    And now, for some facts. Of course, changes could be made post certification. But those of us who ACTUALLY HAVE HAD CARS CERTIFIED, unlike most of the posters here, know that the certification book includes color photos of:

    car front
    car side
    car rear
    car front 3/4
    car rear 3/4
    seat
    dashboard
    vehicle identification tag
    fuel tank
    fuel pump
    exhaust manifold
    muffler
    chassis number close up
    chassis number location
    front undercarriage
    rear undercarriage
    rh side view engine
    lh side view engine
    engine number
    carburetors
    distributor
    gearbox
    differential
    gearshift lever
    gearbox number
    differential number
    front suspension
    rear suspension
    front brake assembly
    rear brake assembly
    front wheels
    rear wheels
     
  19. WCH

    WCH F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Mar 16, 2003
    5,179
    The certification book includes the following written information (no doubt this varies, I'm looking at the book for my 212):

    name of restoration shop
    type of chassis
    original engine?
    type of carburetor
    axle ratio
    number of gears
    original gearbox/differential
    shock type
    suspension original
    braking system
    brake system original?
    wheel type
    wheel dimensions
     
  20. WCH

    WCH F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Mar 16, 2003
    5,179
    The anti-certification sentiment here seems to have risen to the level where it's suggested that certification could be a useful springboard for fraud. Incredible. To the contrary, it could be very useful to the careful prospective buyer. Would I rely solely on certification in making a purchase decision? Of course not. But having had a "big name" market player sell me a car with a critical component incorrect (a good lesson learned early!) - a component that would have been uncovered in the certification process - I'd suggest that the old system wasn't better than the certification system, and that certification, properly understood is good for the market. I see no one has replied to my criticism of the pre-certification system, post #43 in the "de rigeur" thread. I wonder why?
     
  21. DennisForza

    DennisForza Formula 3

    May 23, 2006
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    When will a respected former concorse judge decide to take a shot at a little personal business and begin their own "certification program" at a fraction of the cost? Of course they won't have the factory records at their fingertips, but they will be able to certify at just as high of a level that all componets are correct and correctly installed, even if they can't say that the stitching in the seats is the exact same color and material as that which left the factory originally. I would think that this is some where that some of our resident experts could make a little niche business for themselves for the resale market, while leaving the factory to take care of the true classics for the concorse circuit.
     
  22. MS250

    MS250 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Dec 10, 2003
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    The funny thing is....if owners were just straight up on their cars and had all the books and records with all the oil changes and what not over the years and a clean VIN, there would be no need for this. But seeing that everytime i look at a ferrari and look at the VIN, the cars have been whored out by so many owners on title with little to no paper work it makes it almost mandatory to get a Classic done as well as a PPI. Time will tell how important the Classic program will be.
     
  23. Bryanp

    Bryanp F1 Rookie
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    Aug 13, 2002
    3,735
    Santa Fe, NM
    WCH, since you quoted me in that post from the de rigeur thread, I'll paste your poste here:

    ""I do not need the factory to tell me what I have."


    As an owner - not a dealer or broker or prospective buyer or private marque expert or other "insider," for lack of a better word - who do I want to have tell me (and others) what I have?

    Would I rather have judgments made about my car by a private club that whose members I may not know and who may privately tut tut and whisper and may (or may not) have agendas I can't imagine, or by the factory? Either way, as an owner who cares about the marque and my cars and wants to do what is best for them, I want accuracy; I want to know the truth, good or bad. A few experts have been extraordinarily kind to me - in fact, most of them have freely offered information and advice. Marcel Massini and Kare have on several occasions given me priceless advice for free!! I have had a couple very goods conversations with Tom Shaughnessy. Many private experts have a deep love for the cars and have spent years researching individual models. But then, one hears of certain cars being badmouthed by "experts" .... Classiche certification may or may not resolve these issues - arbitrariness, emotion, politics, connections, opinion - but they already exist."

    In my opinion, nearly all of the "stories" cars have been smoked out by now (I'm talking about important vintage cars here). That said, if 0512MD showed up at a show next week, I'd be the first guy who would want to crawl all over it - I can track where it was most of the days of its short life until it was torn in two in a crash, killing its driver. I am 99% sure I know what Ferrari did with its motor (the factory does not, by the way).

    As you point out in your post, there are experts out there - good ones who cannot be bought - whose decades of research I trust more than the factory's at this point. There will always be whispering from the ranks of those with motives other than historical truth and accuracy. This will not go away w/ factory certification, especially if there have been mistakes. I've heard about those mistakes, but do not have first-hand knowledge of them. One recent occurrence however, underscores some historian's nervousness/skepticism with the factory's certification process. Last month at Mugello, Ferrari had a stand set up to tout the classiche division. They had a 4-cylinder car up on a lift and, on a stand next to the car, the ADS's for 0510M. For most viewers, it would reasonable to assume that the car on the lift was 0510M, right? Well, it is highly unlikely that the car on the lift was 0510M, but rather 0570M which has been in the Factory's possession for about 15 years now.

    Classiche certifcation for a modern car such as an F-40 would be a no-brainer, in my opinion. Issues like standardization between the cars, the accuracy in documentation, etc. are light years part from 1955 when ADS's were created on a greasy typewriter in the corner of the garage.

    Bryan
     
  24. Tenney

    Tenney F1 Rookie
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    Feb 21, 2001
    3,622
    Essential for an F40? Probably not. Couldn't hurt to have, though, and takes up less closet space than the luggage set.
     
  25. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Tell us how you REALLY feel about Classiche Certification :)

    Joe
    www.joesackey.com
     
  26. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Hmm...

    Joe
    www.joesackey.com
     
  27. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    OK I confess :)

    Joe
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  28. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    May 23, 2006
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    From the topic of Classiche Certification to Nazism... LOL. This thread has everything.

    BTW, I always like at some point to address the question raised in any particular topic. Is Classiche Certification essential? Id have to say for the astute collector: YES.

    Joe
    www.joesackey.com
     

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