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F1 gearboxes:white elephant of the future?

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by Bullfighter, Jun 23, 2015.

  1. Kevin Rev'n

    Kevin Rev'n F1 World Champ
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    I heard that the the F-1 cars prime the pump when you open the door and that was all I needed to know about it to not be interested. Battery drain, more switches, more complex circuitry, more hoses, actuators and fittings connecting everything, more seals and shafts to wear. More time required for me to trouble shoot or even understand the thing. So for me it was not a good fit. Driving the car is only one part of my ownership experience. Detailing it is another, it would bother me to no end to hear a pump go on when I open the door to detail the car. I don't even like dome lights coming on when I open a door! I like to participate in maintenance and repair aspects of the car too but admittedly I am getting older and my dance card of area expertise I see as getting pretty full. I am into a great many things and there are pressures on my time so I choose pursuits more cautiously than when I was younger. For me...stick shift! I understand it. lol

    I say this and it might sound derogatory to the F-1 but that is not what I intend. I would also be the first person to admit that there is nothing special about a pump. They are easy to understand and most can be serviced, rebuilt, etc. If I was a track person I would want to keep both hands on the wheel and devote all my time to the apexes and the traffic and simplify the user interface but that is not my particular kink.
     
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  3. technom3

    technom3 F1 Veteran
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    An interesting point.

    I would like to offer a counter point.

    I sell classic cars... and without a doubt people LOVE to talk about 4 speeds. How cool a 4 speed! Thats awesome... gotta have a 4-speed...

    BUT...

    THen they say... ya know... im not 18 anymore... and I want an automatic... let me know when you get an auto. I used to convert manuals to automatics now I have customers actual paying customers who ask to put an automatic in instead of the 3 or 4 speed.

    A 3 speed classic bronco (only sold on the column) with manual steering and drum brakes is an incredibly difficult sale... Especially if they go for a test drive. The damn thing is a HANDFUL at all speeds including parking lot speeds.

    As FAST as these Ferraris are... and the older we get... those of us who beat there chest over driver involvement of a 6 speed will likely change our tune... our reactions slow and the cars become too much. Plus driver involvement in the future will mean something totally different. With people pushing for autonomous cars including the prick Musk... (he is only a prick because he wants autonomous cars) driver involvement might be defined by actually having a steering wheel in your hands.

    Hell a Model T is more involving than any 3 pedal 6 speed car... and the reason why they are worth about 7k is because they are awful to drive... but in 1927... it wasn't so bad!
     
  4. technom3

    technom3 F1 Veteran
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    #103 technom3, Jun 26, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2015

    They have this neat little switch on the cars to turn the battery off. Most people use them when not driving the cars in the near future (a week or longer).

    Also... just so you know... your/a BMW stays awake for 16 minutes after you lock the car. plenty of stuff going on. Then when you come back within a few feet of the car... they key emmits a signal to let the car know to start waking up. We all start are computers and wait for them to boot up... well in a car... when we twist the key we expect everything to be functional. Luxury cars these days on average have 90 ecus and they take lots of power and even time to boot)

    Even GM cars especially corvettes which have the best keyless entry system in the WORLD are constantly emiting and looking for the RF from the remotes/fobs....

    If you want a car you can work on ya gotta buy a classic



    Saves alot of things. This practice is followed even on the 6 speed cars. These cars eat batteries like its there job
     
  5. Kevin Rev'n

    Kevin Rev'n F1 World Champ
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    You might be right but I don't like looking for my radio code so I only use that switch if absolutely needed. I don't have a problem plugging in my car to the trickle charger when I put it away though and I guess some might see that as a hassle. I equipped my garage so that when I open the door I have the pigtail right there waiting for me.

    I...almost got a classic, but then I decided that my Ferrari experience should also include some serious, to me, performance.
     
  6. PhilNotHill

    PhilNotHill Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I love my dct 458 and dct RS5.

    Also love my mt S4 and mt Porsche Boxster S.
     
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  8. oss117

    oss117 F1 Rookie

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    The basic difference between a manual transmission and the F1 or the DC transmission is the kind of control that is afforded to the driver.
    In the manual the driver has full control of the amount of power needed from the engine and the rate of clutch engagement he deems appropriate for the circumstance.
    In a F1 or DC transmission the driver can only vary the engine revs, but not the clutch engagement.
    Driver experience makes the difference: an experienced one can make the clutch of a manual last a very long time.
    Conversely an inexperienced driver can burn a clutch of a manual transmission rather quickly and may be better off with a DCT or a F1 transmission where the rate of clutch engagement is controlled mechanically or electronically.
    Even assuming the wear rate of the clutch is the same for both, F1 and DCT transmissions are more complex than manuals, therefore there are more components that may fail over time.
     
  9. Bullfighter

    Bullfighter Two Time F1 World Champ
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    My Porsche dealer told me (because I asked this specifically) that DCT clutches outlast clutches in three-pedal manuals.

    Humans are just inherently inefficient in engaging/disengaging pedal-actuated clutches. Bad design. If you are an expert at it (whether on a John Deere, Honda, or Ferrari), you minimize the inefficiency but it's technically wasted attention on the part of the driver.

    Not sure how Ferrari F1 boxes compare. Launch control seems to wear them out fast. That may account for the increased expense.
     
  10. DrJan

    DrJan Formula Junior

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    The actual transmissions F1 and Manual look the same on technical drawings, but the F1 has "bits" added.
     
  11. Billy10mm

    Billy10mm Formula Junior

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    I'm sorry, but I don't buy that crap. I doubt said dealer is keeping any sort of statistics, especially on those cars that come in that DON'T need a clutch replaced. His opinion is likely based on his own ability to operate a clutch (which likely isn't good at all), and based on the cars that he sees come in for service that need clutch replacement. In other words, he's basing his opinion on the worst of the bunch.

    I have driven 3-pedal cars my entire life. I have yet to replace a clutch. Had a beater Subaru with 200K miles on it ... original clutch. And I drove that car every day, auto-crossed it, and tracked it plenty. My good friend, track instructor with the BMW CCA, had a 1986 325e that he bought new in '86. That car finally went to the crusher in 2005 with over 250K miles on it, and that car saw a TON of track time. Original clutch in it in 2005.

    Every automated sequential gearbox I've seen revs FAR too much when starting from a stop, for regular driving. The Italians are the most egregious in this regard. And the "wasted attention on the part of the driver" is asinine. It is muscle memory for me, there's no attention to taking off from a red light and even if there is, who cares what I'm "concentrating on" between the speeds of 0 and 4 mph?
     
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  13. DrJan

    DrJan Formula Junior

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    i wonder what the "replace clutch" experience is on this forum? Same model but Manual vs F1?
     
  14. Bullfighter

    Bullfighter Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Lots of assumptions there. The dealership is a PCA event/racing sponsor, so they actually do more than SUV oil changes. But, will defer to your knowledge of the dealer.

    Clutch pedals: It's muscle memory for all of us, from farm tractors to econoboxes to Z-cars, but ultimately it's wasted action and an interruption in power delivery. You can hone your pedal pumping to perfection to minimize the performance loss, but you're still (a) slipping the clutch more than mechanically necessary and (b) wasting engine output. In an old Subaru, it doesn't really matter.

    The Porsche PDK is phenomenal -- much better than their three-pedal. Resale-wise, not sure how they hold up compared to old school manuals.
     
  15. Bullfighter

    Bullfighter Two Time F1 World Champ
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    THAT would be useful information. But also would be interested to know if the repair costs are putting people off from buying used F1-equipped Ferraris.
     
  16. Billy10mm

    Billy10mm Formula Junior

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    I never said the dealer just changes oil, I said the dealer is talking out of his ass. You said that your dealer stated that DCT clutches outlast manuals. I'm calling bull on that. With DCT clutches, I have no control over the amount of slip the clutch is doing. Wear will be consistent based on how hard I take off from a stop, and how often I'm stopping. With a 3-pedal car, while I'm sure there are many that are terrible at operating the third pedal, the driver will have control over it and someone who is good at it can make ANY clutch in ANY car, last for at least a quarter of a million miles. Find me a DCT/SMG/F1 tranny with 250K miles on it that is still on the original clutch.

    And you stating that, "In an old Subaru, it doesn't really matter.", just proves how little you really understand clutch loads and wear. This is actually a bit of sore point with me as people like to justify their lack of clutch skill by stating that higher horsepower vehicles somehow go through clutches quicker than lower horsepower vehicles. So let's break that down, shall we:

    Horsepower is nothing more than a calculation based on RPM and torque. Torque is the actual twisting force applied by the crank of the motor, HP is simply a factor of RPM. A 400HP motor with 400lb-ft of torque needs a stronger transmission than a 600HP motor with 300lb-ft of torque. Transmissions are rated for torque, with no mention of horsepower. Same for clutches.

    Furthermore, all of us, regardless of vehicle, are leaving from a dead stop using essentially the same amounts of torque. We all accelerate from 1 to 5 mph at about the same rate unless we're trying to get some sort of a jump off the line. Technically speaking, weight will play a bit of a factor, as less torque is needed to get a 3200 pound car moving than a 4000 pound car. For the same rate of acceleration, the 4000 pound car will chew through more clutch material and will need to put up with more torque as more is needed to move the heavier vehicle.

    As far as the clutch wear that occurs during shifting at speed ... there's almost none. It is easy to match revs on both up and down shifts, and there is generally little wear during shifting gear anyways, as we are all off the throttle during this operation (or very minimal throttle if we're blipping to match revs). If you are terrible at this, and find yourself slipping the clutch on every downshift as your engine comes up to match the wheel speed, then you are not blipping your downshifts and you don't know how to drive a manual.

    Porsche's PDK is a great flappy paddle box. It is much much much better than the last 458 I got a ride in with regards to unnecessary revs and overall smoothness. And I will admit that on the track, if lap times are your sole concern, a flappy paddle box is definitely going to be both quicker, and better at matching revs, than any human being. But this is a conversation about 3 pedals versus 2, not about the advantages of 2 pedals at the track. Even here on F-Chat, the amount of miles covered off the track by F1 gearboxes, vastly outnumbers the amount of miles covered on the track by F1 gearboxes. So discussing the street merits, and overall driving enjoyment of said boxes, is much more relevant than their track benefits.

    And lastly, not that it matters, but my daily driver has more torque than a 458 Italia.
     
  17. Billy10mm

    Billy10mm Formula Junior

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    Here we go: CS with 14K miles - 20% of clutch gone. So that's what, 70K miles before the clutch is gone? http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/ferraris/490948-2004-challenge-stradale.html

    360/F1 with 24K miles - new clutch and belts: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/ferraris/490012-2001-ferrari-360-modena-coupe-f1.html

    360/F1 Spider with 33K miles - new clutch was put in 1.5 years ago: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/ferraris/486485-2001-ferrari-360-spider-rosso-corsa.html

    Here's a guy getting what, 10K miles out of every clutch in 430/F1: 430 F1 clutch - Ferrari Forums: Ferrari Forum

    Read some of the comments in this thread on Gallardo clutch life: Gallardo clutch life - 6SpeedOnline - Porsche Forum and Luxury Car Resource

    That's just the start. That's with just two very very simple Google searches and 5 minutes of my time. I have yet to read of a computer that can get more life out of a clutch than I can. And having the computer do it for me is terribly boring.
     
  18. 95spiderman

    95spiderman F1 World Champ
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    Why is this tread turning into 2 vs 3 pedals? Thats just personal preference. And its been beaten beyond death

    Its, if you want 2 pedals do you want sct/f1 or dct. Imo dct is the only way to go as it does everything sct does without any of the draw backs like slow down shifts and clunky auto mode. Lambo tried to make case for sct in aventador as more 'emotional' but it will get dct upgrade soon. Sct is done
     
  19. Bullfighter

    Bullfighter Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Agreed. It's a hard topic to keep on track.
     
  20. Bullfighter

    Bullfighter Two Time F1 World Champ
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    None of those are DCTs.
     
  21. DrJan

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    If a person can not afford to service, repair or indeed, replace a cluch on a Ferrari maybe he should have bought a Ford instead?

    My dad told me decades ago when I complained to him how expensive petrol is - if you can not afford to run a car then you should have bought a buss pass instead!
     
  22. DrJan

    DrJan Formula Junior

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    If a person can not afford to service, repair or indeed, replace a cluch on a Ferrari maybe he should have bought a Ford instead?

    My dad told me decades ago when I complained to him how expensive petrol is - if you can not afford to run a car then you should have bought a buss pass instead!
     
  23. F.Engineering

    F.Engineering Formula Junior
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    Yes,
    the pressure plate, clutch disc and the release bearing are the same on both F1 and manual ....
     
  24. F.Engineering

    F.Engineering Formula Junior
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    Hi Billy,
    about the wear of the clutch between F1 and manual is the same!
    In that sense, on both systems is the Driver with his kind of use that create the wear .... because non all people are able to use in a good way ....!!
    If a driver use in a bad way the manual clutch for sure the wear increase but the same on the F1 system, if it use in a bad way the wear increased ...
    More people know nothing of that they speak ...... and on the forum i read thing that hair stand on end ....

    Only one thing is real, we are all different and also our taste are different, that if for me the F1 gearbox is nice for my friend is poop ....
     
  25. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    I think the issue with F1 lies in the conditions when the programming has the clutch at partial engagement. For example in reverse. Its been documented by mechanics here that conditions such as backing up an inclined driveway will lead to premature wear of the clutch. too much slip versus complete engagement of the clutch. The manual user can completely engage the clutch while the computer allows more slip and wear.

    True, its all dependent on the operator and technique with manual clutches. OTOH PIS settings in F1 cars if not set properly could also lead to diminished life.
     
  26. oss117

    oss117 F1 Rookie

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    This may be true if your dealer has many customers who either rev the engine too much when taking off or that my be "riding" the clutch while driving.

    As mentioned earlier, the driver experience makes the difference and specifically, one that knows how to take off using the torque of the engine instead of the revs of the engine, will make the clutch last the life of the car.

    Another example:
    trucks with large diesel engines that have massive torque, even at low revs.
    Their drivers just dump the clutch with revs at idle or just above idle and take off using the torque of the engine even if fully loaded.
    Clutch replacements in trucks are extremely rare, as plates friction is almost nil.
     
  27. Billy10mm

    Billy10mm Formula Junior

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    And therein lies my problem. I can control my clutch slippage in a 3-pedal car. I am at the mercy of a software developer with a 2-pedal car.
     
  28. Billy10mm

    Billy10mm Formula Junior

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    Quoted for truth!
     

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