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F1 relay replacement

Discussion in '360/430' started by masar, Aug 7, 2008.

  1. masar

    masar Formula 3

    Aug 19, 2007
    1,355
    Czech republic
    Full Name:
    Petr
    My F1 transmission on my 360 does not work after i drive few miles and cars get hot. Warning light comes on and i can not switch to any gear. As i found in older threads possible problem is damaged F1 relay or F1 electric pump. I bought new relay wanted to replace it today, but it does not fit into original 360 socket. As i understand this new 50A realy is replacement of the old one which is not available anyore as spare part. Anyone faced to similar problem? How to put the new relay? What should i do? Should i replace the socket or ?
     
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  3. marcoferrari360

    Aug 7, 2008
    1

    I understand ......as I'm so tired of my 360 Modena trasmission's problems that I 'm thinking to put my car for sale on Ebay ! :)
     
  4. toshiba

    toshiba Formula Junior

    Jan 14, 2008
    720
    Full Name:
    Santa
    well make sure and tell me what one is yours so I can avoid it



    my F-1 has been nothing but perfect, I have converted some "6 speed only" guys
     
  5. masar

    masar Formula 3

    Aug 19, 2007
    1,355
    Czech republic
    Full Name:
    Petr
    Just talked with local F dealer and they told me that there ís mistake in spare part catalogue and there is no way to connect the new 50A relay into my 360. They still have in stock the old 30A version of this relay (althought officialy not available anymore) and i should buy this one (its 4 times more expansive). They also said that there is 90% chance that my F1 pump is damaged as well and i should replace the relay together with pump (another 1200 EUR) otherwise i will damage the new relay again.....

    Anyway, i would appreciate if anyone can share experience and if anyone changed the relay for the new 50A one. I think that the 50A was originaly made for Stradale.
     
  6. 720

    720 F1 Rookie

    Jul 14, 2003
    2,623
    So. Cal and No. Utah
    Full Name:
    Rick
    one of my stradales has a 30 amp F1 relay and the other has a 50 amp F1 relay. i heard that ferrari went to the 50 amp relay for stradales apparently because the 30 amp relay could fail under extreme race-like conditions. if it fails it could leave the F1 pump running which could burn out the pump. but you'd probably hear the pump running constantly so you could use the battery kill switch to save the F1 pump until you could replace the relay. also, the 30 amp relay and 50 amp relay are not "pin-to-pin" interchangeable so it would be a hassle to change over to a 50 amp relay. i'm not going to bother trying to change my 30 amp relay to a 50 amp relay. if i tracked the car every weekend then i "might" go to the hassle :)

     
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  8. E60 M5

    E60 M5 Moderator
    Moderator Owner

    Jan 2, 2006
    6,711
    Wash DC area
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    Robert
    Petr,

    I had my F1 pump relay replaced last year just as a preventive maintenance measure and I used the 30A from Ricambi. After reading some of the threads were the relay failed and burned up F1 pumps I didn't want to take the chance. So, count me in for a new one every 2 years.

    There was a thread on upgrading to the 50a on here about a year ago. More than I wanted to tackle.


    Robert
     
  9. masar

    masar Formula 3

    Aug 19, 2007
    1,355
    Czech republic
    Full Name:
    Petr
    Tnanks guys fo feedbacks. Do you think that if the car switch normaly when is cold and the problem starts when car get hot after few miles, it could be only the relay? I presume that if the relay is damaged, it would not switch gears at all even car is cold ???
     
  10. cwwhk

    cwwhk Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2003
    1,535
    Hong Kong, Tokyo
    Full Name:
    Wayne
    You can easily check the condition of your relay by prying open the plastic dust cover on it with small jewller type screwdriver. Check to see if the silver contact points are pitted badly by arcing. And you should also check the resistance across the points with an ohm meter. As an emergency temporary fix you can try to file the points to clean them up, but then you should replace the bad relay ASAP.

    Switching from a 30A to 50A Stradale relay is not that difficult if you don't mind cutting the OEM wiring harness. You just need to buy a new relay socket with the bigger blade type sockets from electronic parts supplier. Oh by the way the 30A is a 5 blade while the 50A is a 4 blade setup. The extra blade is just a ground.

    If the relay is good, then you need a SD2 or SD3 to properly diagnose your problem. You need to check for pump pressure, solenoid valve leakage etc. If pump pressure is too low then you probably need a new pump. If your valve leakage is high, then you might need a QPV valve. In worst case you might need an entirely new control valve and/or actuator assembly. If you think the F1 pump is expensive wait till you price these parts.

    The two position sensors may also be at fault. Again these are jaw dropping expensive parts.

    The TCU is also known to not switch on the F1 pump sufficiently often enough to maintain the system hydraulic pressure when ambient and engine temperature is very high and you are shifting very often as in racing or track day type situation. Sympton is missed shifts and have to wait for system pressure to build up. If this is your case then the only cure is to wire in a custom made control system in parallel to the TCU.

    Bottom line is this. If the problem is not the relay or lack of F1 fluid, you best leave this job to some one who knows this system.
     
  11. masar

    masar Formula 3

    Aug 19, 2007
    1,355
    Czech republic
    Full Name:
    Petr
    Thanks a lot for this information. I just changed relay for new one and the problem is still there = relay is not the issue. I just drove 5 miles everything was ok but suddenly light came on and i could not switch. Wait 5 minutes and switch main power off and everything is ok, another 3-5 miles and problem is here again. I will follow your instruction. I think i should buy the SD2 or SD3, where can i buy it for good price and with fast delivery?

    BTW one of my sensors which are placed close to actuator is without the alu cover so i can see inside and there is soft leakage arround - yellow/green fluid.What this could be? But this i have since i bought the car and never had problems.....

    Thanks again....

     
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  13. cwwhk

    cwwhk Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2003
    1,535
    Hong Kong, Tokyo
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    Wayne
    SD3 costs close to $30,000 and someone has to teach you how to use it. It is NOT user friendly to say the least.

    Take your car to a professional who is familiar with the F1 system. You will save money by not replacing many parts by trial and error.

    If you are a very good mechanic, then you can try to manually force the relay to trigger the F1 pump for 3 to 5 seconds. If by doing so you can then shift, then most likely your problem is low system hydraulic pressure. F1 works only if the system pressure is about 42Bar to 60 Bar.

    If you manually force the F1 pump to work for longer than 3-5 seconds, then you may over pressure the system and may damage the F1 pump. In fact this is what happens when the relay fails. The points weld themselves together, so the pump is on continuously. Pressure shoots to over 60 Bars, and eventually the pump stalls and burns out the small electric motor.
     
  14. masar

    masar Formula 3

    Aug 19, 2007
    1,355
    Czech republic
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    Petr
    #11 masar, Aug 8, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    My mistake :) I thought we are talking about OBDII......

    Attached is picture of one of my coupling sensor. I took this picture today. The cover is missing and there is fluid coming outside. I wonder if the sensor is originaly sealed and if there should be this fluid inside or if there is any pressure, etc.... Additionally i dont know what kind of fluid is this. Its not red F1 fluid. I also attached picture of new sensor where is shown how it should look like with the cover.

    However i think this is just another problem and has nothing to do with the switching problem.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  15. masar

    masar Formula 3

    Aug 19, 2007
    1,355
    Czech republic
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    Petr
    #12 masar, Aug 8, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  16. cwwhk

    cwwhk Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2003
    1,535
    Hong Kong, Tokyo
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    Wayne
    If the position sensor is defective, then the car will not shift. It tells the TCU if the actuators are in their proper position. With an SD2 or SD3 you can turn the sensor by hand and see if the values are within range. If you see spike values out of range then you know your sensor is defective. Since your unit's cover is missing, there is high chance it has been damaged or the electronics have corroded.

    Like I said before, it's a repair job best left to a professional who knows this system and has the SD2/SD3. Otherwise you run the risk of replacing a lot of expensive parts unnecessarily and still not fix the problem.

    Our race team spent 3 years problem solving this F1 system's various failure modes, so it's not something DIY beyond the obvious relay & pump problem.
     
  17. masar

    masar Formula 3

    Aug 19, 2007
    1,355
    Czech republic
    Full Name:
    Petr
    Regarding the sensor or other possible reasons of failure except pump, would the car shift when is cold or not? As i described, car is shifting normaly when is cold and if get hot after few miles,the problem starts. My problem is that i would have to propably tow the car to closest F dealer with SD2/3 which is 100km in Czech or even more in Germany ( i trust more to Germany service who is also much more cheaper)...... I just can not drive it.....

     
  18. cwwhk

    cwwhk Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2003
    1,535
    Hong Kong, Tokyo
    Full Name:
    Wayne
    #15 cwwhk, Aug 9, 2008
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2008
    The most common F1 shift problems we encountered were temperature related. Cold is fine but after engine warm up and say 3 hot laps on the track then F1 system starts to miss shifts occasionally then gets progressively worse as the engine bay temperature gets hotter. If you wait long enough between shifts say 10 to 20 seconds then can usually shift. So if you have a marginally working component, such as a pump, sensor, solenoid valve that is affected by temperature you end up with this type of failure.

    If you have a broken part, then typically no shift regardless of temperature.

    If manually forcing the relay to turn on pump immediately solves your no shift problem then it's probably not the position sensor but low hydraulic pressure. So you then have to check if its a weak pump, a leaky solenoid valve, a bad pressure sensor, air in the hydraulic lines or actuator.....
     
  19. jjsaustin

    jjsaustin Formula Junior

    May 11, 2008
    579
    Austin, TX
    Full Name:
    Jim
    From looking at the service records on my car from the previous owner he had a similar problem and got worse on hot weather.. The service shop determined that the hydraulic pressure was below minimum pressure and ended up replacing the F1 pump and the relay.

    Good luck.
     

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