F12 or 812?

Are you guessing if the suspension in the car you owned was setup or was it left with the universal stock settings? The cost to address suspension is a fraction of paint correction and PPF. My F12 has zero roll or slump and I did not trade it nor would I. Conversely, no money in the world could make an 812 appealing to me.

 

Good to know. I just assumed Ferrari knew how to set the car up straight from the factory. I truly had no idea that it was less than optimal out of the box. Regarding the relative appeal of the 812, or apparently lack thereof, some like blondes, some like brunettes, others like redheads. I gave up years ago trying to convince someone why they should like what I like just because I like it.

 

Way back in the fall of 2015, I got the chance to run with a F12 on the way to breakfast ... the F12/812 is high on my list of wanted cars now ... I’ll take one in white please




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Perhaps you are running the 812 set up, which is the proper one?

 

My settings are done by a suspension shop through the dealership. Stock the cars are setup for general mixed use which is mostly regular street use. You need to have this adjusted to take out roll and chassis irregularities even on 812 I would assume. You don't want to try this yourself unless you have the tools and knowledge which is unlikely. Needs height adjustment but not negative to travel, at least 10% firmer but progressive damping, four corner balancing and camber to the final settings. Some spacing necessary depending on model but watch the wheel offset.

This will likely need a couple iterations to get it correct for your liking. Once complete it transforms the car and it winds up somewhere closer to the VS versions which is what the OEM does to create them. The F12/TdF/812 chassis is a great platform and takes well to adjustment. However, the shock/struts are pathetic for such a high value platform.

 

I am no engineer, but I don't understand how you can dial out roll without changing the springs.

At any rate, I don't think there is a doubt that out of the factory doors, the 812 is the better driving car.

 

You can't. Novitec springs mandatory. Stiffness similar to VS but more progressive and much better quality. Talk to a good suspension shop that knows. The 812 is not ideal from the factory either.

 

So, you had to change the car's hardware. I believe that this proves the point of those who say that the 812 is a much better car.

 

If you say so! Enjoy your 812.

 

I don't have a horse in this race. I just say things I see them. Cheers.

 

I had a F12 for two years and 28000 kilometers . It is a real rocket , very fast , wonderful sound and handling and brakes are awesome . Pininfarina design is very clean and sporty . I’m waiting now for a new 812 Superfast , delivery scheduled for June 2020 . IMHO 812 design is not so clean as the F12 one but I’m with progress and I’ve been told 4WS and new electrical steering are great upgrade . I still prefer F12 design but very curious on new 812 . I let you know as soon as I’ll get it .

 

I'm a bit confused. I'm not an engineer either, but I've worked on A LOT of cars. How exactly do you dial out the roll? You say Novi springs and spacers, okay. What about sway bars? Have you also replaced those? Do you run a modified setup for your active Magneride, or have you had your shocks re-valved? I really find it hard to believe, that only a change in spring rate, spacers and camber, will dial out the roll - because there's a lot of roll.
I'm well aware that the 812 is not perfect either, but out of the gate, it's a lot better dialled in, than an F12. This leads me to my next question. how much better would an 812 dialled in by your guy be? I'm saying this, because I don't think you're comparing apples to apples. I'm sure the lead tech at my dealer could dial in an F12. I know they go through all new cars prior to delivery, to make sure alignment is as it should be, as well as doing modifications if a customer has special needs(that did not sound right...). I do trust his abilities, as he's also the lead tech for one of, if not the largest Challenge team - and they win races. But a lot of people are not as fortunate as you and the clients associated with my local dealership. Yes others can get their F12 properly aligned, and they can also get Novi springs installed. Basic corner weighting is not that hard in itself either. But most dealerships don't have a guy on hand that does A-1 suspension work like we do. We need to compare the cars as they come from the factory, because that's how most will run them. The cars to compare would be a stock for stock F12 and 812, or a mod for mod F12 and 812. Considering how much better a stock 812 is compared to a stock F12, have you ever wondered what magic your guy could create with the 812 as a base?

Food for thought.

 

My reply was to those that were unaware that OEM setups are less than optimal and the F12 in particular takes very well to the proper settings. The 812 has numerous changes and in stock form does have less roll. Its hard to compare just the roll because some of the changes are more than just calibration such as wider fronts, rear steering, increased nannies for control and 6% lower gearing. It also does have stiffer springs and a thicker roll bar.

My car has the changes I stated and it has no hint of body roll. I do not track cars so not addressing treating it like a race car. I think changing the roll bar thickness is unnecessary and would hurt the ride as this seems to be the first complaint about the 812 (stiff ride) other than the looks. Agree a good suspension shop is a valuable resource.

I really like my suspension performance and the ride.

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Having driven race cars the set up depends on the weather and track conditions. It can change from day to day and lap to lap.

I expect the factory set up to be good in just about any conditions. But l don’t expect it to be great in special conditions.

So unless you live in Southern California where the weather is pretty constant, l would be reluctant to mess with the factory set up. The change may be great in some conditions and not so great in others...if you get my drift.

 

Had a good drive in 812. Decided I will stick with my F12 for now, why? I found the suspension too stiff in the 812, felt a bit bone jarring the longer I was in it. F12 softer suspension. F12 also just looks a tiny bit better (to me) . But loved the faster down shifts in 812...

 

Love the ride in 812. Don’t find it too firm at all. Many reviews have said that it is a firm ride though. Many have said that it is not. Seems like looks are not the only subjective thing with the 812. I also think it is the most evocative, striking car of the past decade. Love it.

 

I thought the 812 a bit firm at first- but I wonder if the springs have broken in a bit (now crossing 800 miles) or if I have adjusted a little bit- but now I longer think it so firm. There is no doubt the drive is fantastic. I have also grown to appreciate the aggressive looks- that was before I bought it!

 

Agreed
It is firmer, but it is also better dialed in. To me, the 812 still feels less harsh than the F12. Yes, an F12 is softer when it comes to the larger dips and bumps, but it's more busy and harsh, rattling you about going down the road. While the 812 is firm, it is also planted and solid, thus it does not send hard shockwaves and jolts into the occupants the same way the F12 does. Combine the busy suspension with a somewhat overly sensitive throttle, and a fast steering that probably could benefit from a bit more weighting, and it all becomes a bit uncomfortable.
I feel that the 812 had all of these things fixed, and therefore I find it much more fun, playful and at the same time more comfortable, despite its firmer suspension and more powerful engine. An epic car.

 

I know slightly off topic, but I was amazed at the difference in driving experience of Portofino vs. 812. I had a Portofino for six months/5000 miles and recently traded up. At lower revs they feel similarly fast (no doubt due to turbos in Portofino) but past 100 mph the 812 just keeps hauling HARD. The 812 feels a lot larger on the road, also more planted yet lively and focused. I have the racing seats in the 812 which no doubt add to the firmness/sense of connection to the road. All in all, the 812 just feels like more of a special event to drive. Looking forward to many, many more miles in the 812... what a car! Might even cancel my 812 GTS order... it's a lot of extra money just to loose the roof.... plus, avoids the GPF crap!

PS waiting for my Novitec exhaust + X pipe to be fitted before Xmas... should fix the issue of it being too quiet, especially at lower revs!

 

I love reading everyone's different experiences and descriptions of what they feel, because we all pick up on different things. You guys are very right in what you are saying.

 

Have an F12 currently, to drive it feels like your 80% in control most of the time. Floor the throttle and it wriggles its arse down the road race mode (especially of tyres are cool), and you better be sure to have both hands on the wheel. I quite like the demonic nature of her, but am intrigued also by the 812 refinements and additional Hp. Looks wise theres not much in it for me, but i like the interior of the 812 for sure.

 

Do you mind me asking what shop set up your suspension? I am about to get a 2013 F12 with Novitec springs/spacers and exhaust and am looking for a reliable and experienced shop

 

Here we are.
Who woulda thought


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As a relatively new F12 owner I'm curious about this, naturally, particularly the discussions of improved handling/sportiness/driving experience with the 812.

Does the 812 actually feel more planted at the expense of some of the more 'organic' feeling that I believe the F12 retains, in particular in its steering tactility? Does the 812 have numb-but-accurate EPAS steering?

To explain my perspective:

One thing I've noticed in _many_ other cars is that electric power steering is...pretty numb. I (somewhat) recently drove a gen2 GT4 and was unimpressed--though I'll admit that the context of that drive was pretty poor in many respects, and I'd be thrilled to give one another try. As an owner of a Lotus Elise and an E46 M3 I do also know what actually good steering feel feels like--I'm not just remembering back to 'when cars were cars' and so on. Also drove a 348 spider in the last six months (another unassisted car).

From my perspective, the _hydraulic_ rack in the F12 is kinda great. Yeah the ratio is fast, but you can somewhat feel the road through the wheel and for a car that is as much of an absolute unit as an F12 this is kind of astonishing. Makes driving slowly interesting. Also, I have never once said to myself 'gee, this car needs 50+ more horsepower'. Not ever. Mostly when I'm feeling uncharitable towards it I say '**** this thing is loose!' Or really '**** I wish this thing weighed less.'

I do really wish the suspension was more aggressive, so have been sorely tempted by the novitec setup. Like a true Ferrari owner, the way this may impact resale value is probably the thing that has me most concerned here. But in the context of an F12 to 812 upgrade I think if I were sacrificing the steering feel for the sake of more horsepower and a stiffer ride...I don't really know if that works for me. I've driven a 911 992 with rear steer and found it to be very competent but boring. I could kind of tell that the rear steer was allowing the car to seem less ponderous somehow, but it added to the synthetic feel of that drive. I'm sure that more power would have made it feel a bit more exciting, but I suspect even a 992 turbo s has that synthetic-but-planted feel I first picked up in the M3/4s of the mid teens.

Seriously though: what if instead of adding other stuff to an F12 to make the 812, they just found ways for it to loose 400-500 lb, made it a bit smaller, and put the high quality lowering springs on from the factory. Weight loss creates a virtuous cycle, where because the car is lighter all the bits can be lighter, which in turn makes the car lighter again. I know no one's clamoring for weightloss but man that would be a sweet ride.

 

Love your write up, not much I can add.
Had an f12 TDF and never thought it needed more power. If anything, smaller and lighter.