F12 tdf market price thread

+1

The 599 GTO sold quick because of how different it seemed from the GTB. The noise was a big factor to it, the more aggressive aero etc worked well with the new noise.

For the TDF, it IS a bit of a harder sell. The F12 already has the wonderful noise, which to the untrained ear doesn't sound all that different (even I had to be convinced, and really was when I saw that Josh Cartu video of him collecting his and having a drive around!).

The F12b is also more elegant looking. The TDF is very busy and not as well received as the GTO (which managed to be more aggressive but subtle about it, relatively speaking).

I've always been a fan of the more hardcore cars that Ferrari makes. The CS, Scuderia, Speciale, GTO. The standard models weren't ones I'd lust after as much as I should (which is weird, considering how much I love the 550). I knew the TDF was coming when the F12 came out (as did everyone else, considering how much money Ferrari makes selling an extra batch of special cars), so obviously has high hopes. When it came out, I wasn't as impressed as I hoped I would be. Me and my mate both came to the conclusion, that given the choice of either money no object, we'd actually go for the F12b!

But hearing that TDF, and seeing it in all black, I was a changed man immediately. I was sold. I now really dream of this car.


BUT. That did make me think. For me it took some convincing I'm unsure others will do. TDF vs F12b, the TDF is quite a marmite car! Reading comments everywhere about the car, people share that view.


Will Ferrari sell them all? No doubt. Ferrari has a huge client base who want latest and greatest. Time will tell (come 2017) how much they love it and if they'll sell when the F12 replacement comes.

Fingers crossed they secretly hate it so I can pick one up for less than eleventy million, considering all special cars are suddenly worth 3x as much!

 

I don't think that's quite right, or not in the UK. The GTO was not an easy sell as evidenced by not only how my dealer really pestered me to buy one, but also the discount to new shortly after delivery.

I understand your comments on the TDF aesthetics but have you yet seen one in the flesh? I was similarly positioned until I saw the physical car, and was even thinking of not taking my allocation, but after the presentation, I was blown away.

You also need to appreciate where the designers could go. As explained to me by the man in charge of TDF design, with the 599 they had a relatively soft aesthetic that they could easily add aggression to, almost make it like it should have been at launch. With the F12, they already started with a very aggressive design.

 

Traveller is correct about the GTO. It was 2010, the world was weak. There was also a considerable amount of online noise about the GTO being a marketing scam.So much so I admit I even cancelled my option. But slept on it and thought WTF, when would Ferrari ever release a car that's a marketing scam and managed to re-order. Imagine doing that now with the tdf? My GTO arrived, its value did drop by about 10% in the first 16 months. Today, it's a different story and per the GTO, deservedly so.

FF is also correct.

But what I don't understand is the whinging about how Ferrari does its business, or even the dealers for that matter. That's life. When I bought my first Ferrari in 1999, it was a one year old 550 which I bought from an indie dealer. I barely received a call-back from a Ferrari dealer when I asked about the 550's next service (I still have the 550 and today she's treated like a Queen).

It's taken me 16 years to be on Ferrari's radar. I hit 5 with my F50 and then magically a 458 SA appeared. And since then the tdf. Is Ferrari doing me a favour? You bet your life they are. Would my name drop off the radar if I abuse my position or sell up? Absolutely, in a second. It is what it is.

I've been on the receiving end of dealer nonsense, I've had "talk to the hand" response from the factory. More than I care to remember. That was several years ago and I dealt with it accordingly. It's taken time and hard work. The reality is so long as Ferrari make wonderful cars, and protect the essence/magic of the Ferrari brand, people will queue to buy their "products". And like any other brilliant marketer, that earns them the right to decide how best to sell them.

 

Don't get me wrong, I completely agree with you.

I haven't yet seen one in the flesh. I think it would look fantastic in Black, greys, Rosso Scuderia or blue...The yellow they presented the car in was not right IMO. Maybe the yellow eyes better in real life (I love the yellow, my choice of colour for a Speciale definitely!).

I for one love the car, definitely goes on the wish list.

I never really got how it all happened when the GTO came out. I do know that the 2nd hand prices got as low as around £270s in the UK, for I believe RHD cars too...!

 

I hear ya. Glad to hear it's better over there.

 

Exactly. And i might add, Ferrari isnt the only one to do it. Porsche for example sold their latest GT3 RS with a preference to those who bought a 918. Same for the upcoming 911R. It is normal business practice.

 

I totally agree. There have been many posts about how they should change the system, run an auction or whatever, and whilst I accept I am in a somewhat privileged position, it's a bit like being a successful band, discovered 'overnight'. Noone saw the years playing clubs up and down the country.

I have been buying on and off as my finances permitted since 1979 ending up with an F40. When they didn't, and I had no Ferrari in the garage, I seemingly went back to the bottom of the ladder and have had to reprove my credentials by buying new production cars again and losing a lot of money on the way through. And now I am fortunate enough that the factory see me as qualified, just, to get a TDF. Hopefully, I can continue to prove that I am the right sort of custodian.

In simple terms, why would the company want to change this system which works well for them in both financial and PR terms and so not sell their best limited product to their best limited customers. Surely this way it encourages more buyers to try and climb the ladder and those on the ladder to keep on opening their wallets?

 

IMO it really makes sense. See it as a reward for being a loyal customer.

I'd be pretty pissed if I had multiple Ferrari's and couldn't buy a LaF or TDF, yet some first time buyer would be able to if they ponied up more cash.

 

Having spoken on the auction approach a few times, just want to point out that I never said it was a panacea or that Ferrari "should" use that system. I clearly understand why they don't -- any money they leave on the table by not using an auction for a given car -- not locating the buyers willing to pay the absolute most for that car at that moment -- is in essence an investment by them in repeat buyers and long-term holders of their cars. It is obvious why those are desirable things to a company like Ferrari.

I think my comments about auctions were mainly made in response to posts suggesting that people who flip cars are somehow morally reprehensible. I don't think that is necessarily true and I was trying to point out that their activities provide a service to (a few) people who otherwise wouldn't be able to figure out the password to open the Ferrari limited edition jewel box. After all, while I'm sure Ferrari does its best to carefully identify who does and doesn't go on "the list," at the end of the day there will be a quantum of arbitrariness to who makes the cut -- that cannot be avoided in such systems as long as they are run by humans. (For example, Ferrari aren't trying to solve for one variable only, loyalty; they are likely also solving for others, like geographic diversity amongst their markets.) That doesn't mean they don't get it mostly right and that those on the list haven't generally paid their dues. I was just pointing out that flippers bring back some of the positive attributes of an auction -- cars are never allocated in an auction based on arbitrary criteria.

And at the end of the day, without sellers you can't have collectors and collecting. If nobody ever sold their Ferraris, we wouldn't really know what they were worth, would we?

 

So why does Adele continue to engage in such masochistic and self-defeating behavior? Why do her fans? After all, you'd think they'd tire of "getting the shaft" and shift their loyalties to a performer who does things differently?

 

Oh my lord seriously? I owned a record company. I know exactly how this works. I loved my artists. Three of my children are artists. What is it about the morality of an abusive "monopoly" that you don't understand? The entire deck for acquiring tickets to performances in the U.S. is stacked... just as when I was promoting my artists, I had to "reimburse" to get airtime for my artists' songs (even though the so-called "payola" days were supposedly over). Now back to the topic at hand

So those people who buys Ferraris are masochists too then (because they have to spend so much money on things other than what they want)? And this is a healthy thing you say?

Like you, I'm not suggesting that anything should be changed. Certainly I can't change it. But I am voicing my opinion that this type of behavior (not just on limited cars... 458S was not limited) is going to come back to haunt Ferrari some day, particularly now that they're a public company. All this froth makes me feel like that day is coming sooner than later.

 

However that is EXACTLY what happens and they don't even pony up more cash…A friend got a LaF having bought 2 road Ferraris in the previous 10 years. I had 3 out of the 4 limited cars up to that point and was told to get lost.
I know of 458 SA that were ordered by customers that hadn't bought Ferraris since 2006-7 and the same happens now with the TdF.

Ferrari sell cars to people they consider important for the firm. Your buying history comes second. I am not saying they are doing a disservice to the brand, quite the contrary. Of course these buyers will go away when the market turns sour (as they did with the 599GTO), but a slow sale of one limited model is well worth the frenzy on all the rest.

 

I've asked to buy a f12 tdf with an other car, not important if ff or california, but refused ( i've asked to 3 dealers) now i've lost my passion and decided to sell also my 599 gto...

 

Ps, i'm "only" 44 years old and potential big customer for ferrari also in future...

 

Unfortunately for you - Ferrari has a lot of "big" actual customers. I know many people with large Ferrari collections and also do events and Challenge series etc. They will be ahead of the wannabes and they get offered the limited cars although they don't always take them.

 

I know, but i'm not interested to play this game i will move to other big brands

 

You don't like driving the gto you raived about so much because you can't buy a specific car from the same builder?

 

Sounding a little like foot stamping.

 

the germans always seem to have a good supply of the limited Ferrari models for sale eventually. If you can find the tdF offered in a color you like then pay the premium and enjoy the Ferrari you really want.

 

Now trust me, to each their own, and I'm not out to insult anyone because I truly believe that collecting can be as much a passion as driving... but... referring to anyone who hasn't bought a Ferrari or hasn't "Paid the entry fee and climbed the ladder" as a "wannabe" I find very ironic.

When I was a Pro Formula Atlantic driver, I was a bit taken back by my fellow drivers' universal condemnation of Porsche owners (circa 1989) as "a%%^oles" and "wannabes" dressed up in their little Porsche suits because they were considered "posers" who really felt that they were "fast" drivers just because they owned the marque. I recall a more favorable opinion of Ferrari owners (except again, for those that had to wear red prancing horse suits to "prove" their speed).

My point being, I was definitely not a "wannabe" when my garage introduced me to the dealer I bought the 458S from. I was a "driver" that was not looking for a Ferrari to play the part or join some exclusive club, but because they knew that I would love driving that car, and that I was capable of wringing it's neck and they were 100% correct, I love the car.

Now I know there are a ton of Ferrari owners in this community that drive the snot out of their cars and track them etc. All I'm referring to is this attitude that says that anyone who wants to buy a Ferrari must be a "wannabe" and is somehow not worthy. It's a terrible generalization in my opinion. Your mileage may vary.

 

I received the first local allocation on a 458 Speciale Aperta and welcomed it home just a few months ago - but was turned down for a TDF not long after - so the lesson to me was to be thankful for what you do get - and my reaction wasn't negative when I was turned down - I understand they have to spread it around - That's what happens when you have more raving customers than you do cars - If you switch to a brand that doesn't have that problem, you will see why shortly.

 

Interesting, as I could have had an Aperta but was concerned if I did, my chances on the TDF
might be reduced. Seems like I might have been right, or not, but who knows in this lottery.

 

If Ferrari really gave a **** about this issue, they'd just lease the cars initially with a 100% fair residual some years in the future.

 

I don't understand the problem. Ferrari made 200 more tdfs vs the 599 GTO so they clearly have tried to satisfy the market better this time around. They could have easily upped the price more too, but chose not to. That's two major concessions to the market.

Ferrari limited edition procurement is a long term game for all but a few public personalities. That has always been the case. The good news is that there are always more limited editions coming, so all is good.

 

Certainly in the UK I'm at a loss as to understand where all the TDF cars are going
If I consider friends who like me bought the 599GTO and 458SA, Ferrari haven't exactly been rushing to give us cars and most of them have been told they aren't getting them

Yet you read a lot of stories on the forums from people who have hardly ever bought new cars in the past but have done deals with dealers to get TDFs in exchange for taking "unwanted" CaliT or F12s

As a result whereas with the SpecialeA very few of the "Specialist" dealers were offering cars (in fact most of the SpecialeA cars I've seen for sale in the UK have come from Germany/Hong Kong or Japan), with the TDF they appear quite able to quote you a premium for a UK car which you can spec