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F40 90969

Discussion in '288GTO/F40/F50/Enzo/LaFerrari' started by Aircon, Jan 29, 2021.

  1. JohnMH

    JohnMH Formula 3

    Jan 28, 2004
    1,102
    Dubai, UAE
    Dubai is a terrible place to sell a high end car for a top of market price. Were you to want to spend $1.5M on a F40, would you buy one from a long-standing EU / UK dealer, or fly down to Dubai and buy a limited history car in a place where people typically don't maintain their cars, the law may not protect a buyer, and registered stolen cars exist. Nobody would pay top of market for a Dubai car, hence the reason to export prior to sale. Cars can come in to the EU on a temporary basis with a posted bond. If you sell the car, you pay the tax, register the car and get the bond back.

    One of my cars was exported from Europe to the UAE over 30 years ago, but its serial number was also applied to another car which has been registered and driving in the EU for decades. This duplication was only discovered when I imported my car to Italy and went to vehicle inspection to obtain an Italian ownership document. It has so far taken a year of police involvement and forensic testing to determine that my car was the one originally made with that serial number. While that discovery was a relief, the second part of the story has yet to play out, concerning the identity of the duplicate car which is registered in another EU country (I want my serial number). The point is that fraud can become a major headache for both me the other (likely innocent) owner, decades later. Had it gone the other way (remnants of a hidden serial number was discovered by forensic testing underneath the viewable one) I could be the one facing the loss of my car.

    Cars with known title issues are not worth it. Even if you are ultimately lucky and your car is not stolen, the year of anxiety is not fun.
     
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  3. Andial

    Andial Formula Junior

    Jun 19, 2016
    383
    Which Dubai plates happen to be.
     
  4. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 22, 2002
    15,768
    So whats the latest?
     
  5. Collesano

    Collesano Karting

    Jan 14, 2017
    82
    England UK
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  6. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2013
    2,269
    Surprised no one posted up a link to this at the time, the power of fchat!

    Hello Sam and James, you lurkers :)

     
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  8. 275GTB

    275GTB Formula 3

    Jan 12, 2010
    1,801
    London
    Full Name:
    Mark
    they did page 9 post 216

    totally waste of time watching it
     
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  9. 275GTB

    275GTB Formula 3

    Jan 12, 2010
    1,801
    London
    Full Name:
    Mark
    above is my comment at the time
     
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  10. Trax

    Trax Formula 3

    May 26, 2005
    1,350
    UK
    Full Name:
    Douglas
    Funny that given DK claim to be such experts on F50s that he claims not to know about all the F50s with matching Vin numbers which the average 14 Ferrari fan would know about
     
  11. YellowF50

    YellowF50 Formula Junior

    Feb 15, 2007
    787
    UK
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  13. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2013
    2,269
    Ooops I did not spot it had already been posted. Yes nothing new was added to the debate, but James no doubt has to remain neutral to protect his potential future business dealings, he did let slip he knew the owner of the blue car. Pity he did not expand on the story that the Japanese Cannonball car was in the UK in the past.

    I recall DK recently did a ground up rebuild on an F40 and that bare chassis was shipped off to Italy for work, wonder which one that was.

    There have been a few phoenix F40s in the UK in the last few years, maybe one of those?
     
  14. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Mar 25, 2002
    32,681
    houston/geneva
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    Ross
    yes the pics are low d, but the color seems different and the front spoiler is clearly a euro version, whereas the car in question sports a usa version - which could have been changed at any time though.
     
  15. JohnMH

    JohnMH Formula 3

    Jan 28, 2004
    1,102
    Dubai, UAE
    I visited DK in 2019 to look at F40s; I was impressed with them and their stock. They did have a bare frame which I understand was going to become a car again, but there is no mystery or harm in doing that. Were I to own such a frame I would do the same. They did tell me the story behind it (fire?) which was interesting. Were I in the market (a nice idea) I would look at their stock.

    One thing that did occur to me while reading this thread - in some jurisdictions a wrecked car is not only noted as having a ‘salvage’ title, it is actually stripped of its title, ie. they will not allow the same serial number to be used to register a car and perhaps they are required to cut out the serial number before selling the frame. I always thought the UK was like this, but I could be wrong.

    In other words, in some places having a wrecked car could cause you to want a ‘new’ serial number as much as having a stolen car.
     
  16. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2013
    2,269
    Just to clarify I was in no way suggesting DK were doing anything untoward with the bare chassis, it was them that had participated in a piece on you tube about the car, not something anyone would do if they wanted to keep such a thing low ley, I was just wondering which example that may have been.
     
  17. Ferrari27

    Ferrari27 Formula Junior
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    Jul 5, 2010
    741
    Solihull, UK
    Full Name:
    Robert
  18. Ferrari27

    Ferrari27 Formula Junior
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    Jul 5, 2010
    741
    Solihull, UK
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    Robert
  19. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    16,169
  20. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2013
    2,269
    Steve Strange had at least two fire damaged F40s over the years. One was the ex Dave Gilmour car which has since been rebuilt and up for sale last year. The VIN number is well known on here.

    The other was an example that went up in flames at a track day at Spa. I have the tubi from that one. I imagine the frame is also from that example.

    He is a well known dismantler of high end cars for many years.

    The DK one could well be the Tax the Rich example that went up in flames in France a couple of years back, ex race, pre production car from memory or possibly the one I posted up at a salvage yard in the UK slightly before then.
     
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  21. Collesano

    Collesano Karting

    Jan 14, 2017
    82
    England UK
    The chassis seen up at DK might well be the one from 74047 (UK reg. G972 KOG) They restored it back in 2013 too.

    But back then the chassis seems to have been kept black, what colour did Michelotto paint that frame in when they converted it to LM spec.?
    The silver painted chassis could belong to another car and speculations might lead to the "We choose truth over fact" scenario :D

    How and when did the 74047 alternate between its post-93 blue/white livery and the red original livery before that fateful trip?
    When used in that "Tax The Rich" video posted in early 2016 it was still in it's blue/white livery in the YT video : Ferrari F40 GT Farmkhana

    When taking part in a concourse event in September 2015 it was in red "Club Italia" livery, SGM of Banbury did the paintwork etc.
    It was in that livery when it caught fire in Italy near the village of Villanova d'Albenga 05.04.17, covered by a regional newspaper in this article.

    I guess there is not much chance of any more sightings of the Azzuro Blue F40 that Kaaiman had for sale!?

    Probably not in blue and NOT with ch.no. 90969, if at all that is...
     
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  22. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2013
    2,269
    #394 PAUL500, Mar 7, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2021
    I think that pic shows the frame post blasting and in a holding primer rather than silver, it looks to still be road spec, no cage or air jack towers etc

    Was 74047 a full LM spec car or simply a lightly converted road car, production racer?

    Edit, to answer my own question, then no it does not look to have been converted to LM spec in the past so could well be that chassis.

    I recall James saying the frame shown was going to be reborn in more of a SInger type "update" spec.
     

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  23. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    16,169
    74047 was F40 prototype #4.
    Frankfurt Motor Show IAA car September 1987.

    Marcel Massini
     
  24. JAM1

    JAM1 F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Oct 22, 2004
    4,384
    FL, NY, and MA
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    Joe
    That would be a shame. It would be nice to have the car documented for what it is/isn’t with some definitive inspections. It would also be nice for it to be driven and enjoyed rather than vanishing and coming back later in some new iteration.
     
  25. luigisayshello

    luigisayshello Karting

    Jul 9, 2014
    164
    Do you know what will happen to the car with false vin? Nothing. Unless the car tries to be registred in the same country you have yours, there will be absolutely 0 outcome from your findings.
    The only 2 options you have as off now is to either buy the car and send that car to the scrap yard (at least vins) or to legally steal the car by swapping plates and drive it off.
    In Europe there is a deep muddy swamp regarding registred stolen cloned vin cars, it's a bloody unsortable mess.
    And the other owner can do the exact same to your car by the way.

    Hopefully all of this mess gets cleared and sorted sooner than later, but not hopeful unless you put some lobby company trying to sort it once & for all.
     
  26. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2013
    2,269
    More has just come to light about the two Mclaren F1s I mentioned before which are in a similar scenario. The race F1 that has been running round the UK roads for the past 20 odd years had in fact been using the registration document of an example that was exported many years ago out of the UK and then vanished In Mexico, the race F1 has now recently been correctly first registered as the car that it actually is. All very naughty but I doubt anything will come of it.

    The same thing will happen with the blue F40, as long as the VIN to which its assembly number was first allocated was not stolen in say a strong market country for these cars then the 90969 chassis plate in the front trunk will be ground off, a new one stamped up for that assembly number VIN and tacked back on, new repro vin tags purchased and pop riveted on, it will be painted red again and blend back into the F40 scenery.
     
    Marcel Massini likes this.
  27. 275GTB

    275GTB Formula 3

    Jan 12, 2010
    1,801
    London
    Full Name:
    Mark
    as long as Ferrari don't put a seek and destroy order on it and the police are not involved
     
  28. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2013
    2,269
    Ferrari have no control over that car once it left them brand new, even if it was later stolen, it is nothing to do with them. All they can do is be very awkward over issuing certification regarding that VIN to allow it to be re registered, but again without proof it was stolen why would they put obstacles in the way? throw enough money at them and they would issue the new VIN a classiche book and probably even take on the cars restoration!
     

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