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F430 6 speed and the 458

Discussion in '360/430' started by bounty, Sep 2, 2009.

  1. bounty

    bounty F1 Veteran

    Feb 18, 2006
    7,632
    San Diego, CA
    What will the news of no 6 speed in the 458 do to 430 6 speed prices? Is there a correlation? Will this enhance the prices of 6 speed models prior to the 430 as well?
     
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  3. Bluehinder

    Bluehinder Formula Junior

    Aug 9, 2005
    861
    Colorado
    Nothing in my opinion. 430 goes down no matter what tranny.
     
  4. jsanocki

    jsanocki Formula Junior

    Aug 30, 2006
    762
    NJ
    If they stop building the 6-speed manual trans is due to no demand... so how are you going to get more money for something nobody wants?

    458 has a 7-speed trans so the manual is almost completely written off in my opinion...
     
  5. Prancing 12

    Prancing 12 Formula 3
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    May 11, 2004
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    The long way home
    #4 Prancing 12, Sep 2, 2009
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2009
    I wouldn't write it off for that reason... plenty of cars have a 6-speed manual and 7-speed sequential... BMW M3, M5, M6, all Porsche manuals are 6-speed, PDK is 7-speed...

    And I wouldn't say nobody wants it... maybe just not enough to justify offering it in the 458. I know plenty of people who insist on rowing gears and won't have it any other way. If Ferraris cuts the manual transmission in the 458 and someone that insists on a manual shift wants the latest and greatest Ferrari that allows to shift their own gears, a 6-speed F430 would be their only choice.

    On a side note, when BMW introduced the E60 M5 exclusively with the SMG, prices on the out going E39 (exclusively with a 6-speed manual) jumped 15-20%...
     
  6. Way2fast

    Way2fast Formula 3

    May 24, 2006
    2,064
    Santa Barbara County
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    Sam
    The 458 is designed for the 7 speed and would probably not run as well with a manual. The gearing and shift points are developed for 7 gears and not 6. This happen with the M5. It was only in SMG when first sold. After the first year that offered a manual and the car did not perform as well as the SMG since the shift points were different.
    My 430 is a 6 speed and I ordered it that way. I much prefer a manual to paddles. If I ever decide to sell my car (which I doubt) I think it will sell easier because in the long run, F1's will have higher maintance costs
     
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  8. CChung

    CChung Karting

    Dec 10, 2003
    244
    Southern California

    There will ALWAYS be someone who wants a manual. Many Porsche and Corvette owners who want to move up to a Ferrari will want a manual. And check out this thread and look and see how many people would want a manual in the 458:
    http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=251991

    As far as 430 manuals being worth more, only time will tell. I sure hope so since I ordered my '08 with a manual also.
     
  9. FJS961

    FJS961 Formula Junior

    Jan 30, 2008
    869
    West Hartford,, CT
    Full Name:
    Frank
    I decided on a 6 speed 430 myself. It is lower production for sure. Rare is usually good down the line when someone is looking for one (from seller's view).
     
  10. DAF63

    DAF63 Rookie

    Sep 24, 2012
    15
    I have seen no indication, yet, that late model manual transmission Ferraris are selling for more than their F1 counterparts. But in the case of the 430 and the 599, rare as they are, I would not be surprised if good examples start to carry premiums in another 5-10 years, when it will be very difficult to buy a good modern sports car of any kind (let alone a Ferrari) with three pedals. Remember that these are the most powerful cars Ferrari ever made (and will ever make, probably) with manual transmissions. That could/should set them apart, in the eyes of collectors, from the earlier models with gates, unless you're talking a special edition like the F40.

    Having said all that, I think it's a shame that the art of driving a great car fast has been dumbed down by the twin clutch and F1 gearboxes, and both the 430 and the 599 are joys to drive with the beautiful gated shifters. So if you have one and like it, I suggest you hold onto it.
     
  11. Carnut

    Carnut F1 Rookie
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    My last Ferrari was a 430 with a gearshift, and if I ever decided to buy another it would only be a 430 with a gearshift so I might pay more to get what I want. I will NEVER buy another car with those paddles again! Read Mr. Breeze he changed a 458 into a gearshift car in the novel.
     
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  13. vvvmd

    vvvmd F1 Rookie
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    Dec 23, 2003
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    I dissagree that the there is no demand for 6 speeds. I think it was a Ferrari decession to stop making cars with sticks. When I was ordering a 430 with a stick I had to wait forever I could have gotten an F1 much faster.
     
  14. VTChris

    VTChris F1 World Champ

    Aug 21, 2005
    13,009
    Since there are fewer 3 pedal cars in both the 360 and 430, they will always find buyers fairly quickly.
    A lot of us still like to shift the old fashion way because we don't track our cars to truly appreciate the F1.
     
  15. andrew911

    andrew911 F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Sep 8, 2003
    2,868
    Northern NJ
    In addition to personal preference, it's also the potentially pricy repair bills with the F1 that as these cars age will raise the value of the stick cars relative to F1. I've heard of 2 pricy repairs on F1 430's at our local cars & coffee meet this summer (pricy as in close to 5 figures excluding the numbers after the decimal point!). To be fair, F1 repair prices may come down as these cars come off power cube warranties and people go to an independent vs. dealer for maintence, and also if the aftermarket rebuilds pumps and/or comes up with some cheaper fixes for common F1 issues...

    If I were to upgrade to a 430 it would only be a stick (buy the time I'd get one it would be 10 years old, so It's not like as the 2 3rd or even 4th owner I'd be chasing the latest technology). The same scenario was when I bought my 360 three years ago...I only looked at stick cars.

    If I had the desire and money to track the car, it might be a different story- F1. But for a street car I still prefer stick.
     
  16. 2GT

    2GT Formula 3

    Aug 25, 2008
    1,793
    Western NY
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    Fred
    I bought my F430 Spider last year precisely because it had a stick shift. While I was concerned about potential repair bills with an F1 transmission, I really wanted a stick. I have driven seven F1 Ferraris, including three F430 models and two 458s. I have to acknowledge that the 458 has the best F1 transmission yet, and in automatic mode (which the owner of the cars I drove always uses) it is the equal of any torque-converter automatic that I have ever driven. That said, I prefer my Ferraris with three pedals! Fred
     
  17. hardtop

    hardtop F1 World Champ

    Jan 31, 2002
    11,253
    Colorado
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    Dave
    Most people don't realize that Ferrari treated stick shift and paddle cars as separate models. Paddles were not an option to check off a list. Therefore, they made as many or as few as they felt like. I know a local guy who wanted a stick but finally threw in the towel and took a paddle car because the dealer was never allocated another stick car. I bought my 3 pedal car new 8/05 and was told for a few years after that no one wanted a stick car. More recently, the local dealer has told me they would really like to have my car back.

    Dave
     
  18. 2GT

    2GT Formula 3

    Aug 25, 2008
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    Although it is often claimed that no one wants stick-shift cars, it is interesting to note that the F1 transmission came with a hefty price tag on new cars, yet comparably-equipped F1 and stick-equipped cars appear to to be selling without a price differential reflecting the F1 transmission. It may be the scarcity of stick-equipped Ferraris, the novelty in this age of paddle-shifters, or the "last gasp" of dinosaurs like me. However, any way you slice it, I don't think that the presence of a third pedal on a Ferrari detracts in any way from its value. Since I realize that that there will likely never be another new Ferrari with a stick, I'll enjoy my three superannuated Ferraris, stick shift and all. As an aside, my '73 246 GT with 31,000 miles has never even needed a minor clutch adjustment. Fred
     
  19. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    Dec 13, 2009
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    The Law of supply and demand is the "Law" for a good reason. It's not the "guideline" of supply and demand. We'll see where (real) manual cars go from here. If the people of the future deem a 3 pedal car inferior and they don't want one then there will be no demand and prices will be low. Low supply and demand for a product usually keep prices up.

    My 928 has very low demand, thus it's not worth a set of rims for my 360 and I don't see this changing for quite some time.

    OTOH, unlike many american drivers, the rest of the world seems to know how to drive stick. Therefore our view on things might be skewed..
     
  20. Russell996

    Russell996 Formula 3

    Sep 24, 2010
    2,250
    New Forest UK
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    Russell
    Paddles were an option in the UK. Manual gear box was standard, F1 was an option and ticked by most people.

    UK cars by volume.
    430 manual - 129
    430 F1 - 731
    430 spider manual - 128
    430 spider F1 - 847
     
  21. Noblesse Oblige

    Noblesse Oblige F1 Veteran

    Nov 7, 2011
    6,088
    Three Places
    I have one of each -- a 458 and manual F430 -- and love them both. The manual is so good that I can convince myself that I am almost as fast as the DCT. I'm not of course, but there is nothing like the satisfaction of working the gears up and down through the gates. I may sell the 458 at some point but probably not the F430. The last of its kind.
     
  22. flat-12

    flat-12 Formula Junior

    Mar 18, 2011
    300
    Germany
    I would like to see some kind of manual transmission in a 458!
    What do you think about a manual sequential gearbox?
     
  23. DAF63

    DAF63 Rookie

    Sep 24, 2012
    15
    I have never owned a paddle shift car but after hearing all the accolades about the 458 and its chief rival, the McClaren MP4, I decided to test both to see for myself. The McClaren is a very fast and competent car but it's like driving a supercomputer. The 458 is much better, but IMO it still feels like the car is practically driving itself. I have a 430 6-speed and it is damn-near perfect driver's car. I can only imagine how good the 458 would/could have been if they mated it so a slick, meaty h-gate like the 430's. And I don't want to hear anymore crap about 570hp being too much for a manual - nonsense. If Porsche, GM and Dodge can successfully mate manuals to 600+hp cars, certainly Ferrari can. The decision to build only dual clutch cars is strictly business driven - dollars and cents.
     
  24. ralfabco

    ralfabco Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Mar 1, 2002
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    banana republic of america
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    Israel Beiteinu
    Most buyers for new Ferraris are old men.

    They do not want to shift.




    In addition, with the autobox, your wife and or g.f., can now drive the car.

    I would never buy a sportscar, supercar, 2+2, and or GT with an automatic transmission.
     
  25. 355dreamer

    355dreamer F1 World Champ
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    I think they will certainly be worth more. Even the non F1 355s get a premium.

    Time will always be the enemy of the F1 tranny. As technology improves, you will always have obsolete equipment. With a true 6 speed, it's a non issue.
     
  26. MD355

    MD355 Formula Junior

    Mar 8, 2004
    780
    Europe
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    MD
    I agree ! Plus let's face it, we don't necessarily buy F-cars to be the fastest around... If that was the case, there are other manufacturers that can beat the performance/$ figure...
    It is all about enjoying your drive and feeling involved in the action...
    To drive fast and perform "the perfect" gear change should require skills, otherwise what's the point if computers take car of everything...
    Also, when technology moves on and a faster / better gear change system comes up, what are you left with ? Just an old auto gear change system that used to be the best around and was never as much fun as the manual... See what happened to 360 F1, 430 F1, 599 F1... etc etc Plus the service costs are higher as these system get older...

    Give me a 458 6-speed manual any day over the hi-tech 7-speed auto (no need to go the 7-speed manual way that Porsche chose in the 991, it's just too confusing in my opinion)
     
  27. DAF63

    DAF63 Rookie

    Sep 24, 2012
    15
    Good for you for saying it, because you're right. I also have a 599 6-speed, which is even harder to find. It needs about 20 minutes to get nice and warm, and it takes some time to learn where it likes to shift and match up the revs. But once you get it right, it's an immensely pleasureable car to drive. And the shifter in that car is a work of art, even nicer than the 430's, I think.

    The good news is that some nice 6-speed 430s have been coming onto the market recently, and for now at least they don't cost anymore that the F1s. So if you want one and are willing to spring for it, they're out there.
     
  28. Need4Spd

    Need4Spd F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 24, 2007
    6,089
    Silicon Valley
    I think a market will always be there for 3 pedal cars. Porsche at least thinks so, having introduced the new 911 with a 7 speed manual.
     

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