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F430 Broken Manifold Stud

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by Metastable, Dec 5, 2019.

  1. Metastable

    Metastable Formula Junior

    May 4, 2018
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    #1 Metastable, Dec 5, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2019
    Need some brainstorming ideas.

    Scenario:
    - F430 Spider
    - was doing work on car and noticed stud sheared from the exhaust header on very first cylinder.
    - if memory serves me right, it is on passenger side, next to the AC compressor (I believe)
    - car is in storage for the winter, so no current access, but trying to formulate a plan
    - I currently do not have a lift, but might have access to one in town..... no engine picker/crane either.

    Thoughts:
    - obviously the easiest way to extract the broken stud, would be to have the engine out..... but that would be a major pain.... I think
    - once the header comes off, the stud is not too far below the case
    - Can one build up a weld and then weld on a nut to those welds, or would the heat from the welding possibly compromise the engine case?
    - Is there enough space to do the nut welding technique, with the engine still in the car?
    - If the engine comes out, does it come out from the bottom like a 348/355 or from the top, or can you go either way?

    Here are some pics. One shows a picture of the broken stud, the other shows a new stud and how deep it goes. Keep in mind the header is still there and would have to come off. I would like to hear thoughts and possible solutions. Also, please let me know if any of you have had experience taking an F430 engine out.

    Thanks is advance!

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  2. Cribbj

    Cribbj Formula 3
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    Considering whatever you do is going to be a PITA, I'd be tempted to try drilling the stud for an EZ-Out and try that solution first, along with the requisite heating, PB Blaster, etc.

    Don't know what kind of access you have there for a conventional drill, but you might start with one of those variable speed tools that looks like a big version of a Dremel and one of their specialty bits and get a good pilot hole first, then work up from there. Those are M8 studs aren't they?
     
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  3. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Your idea is good but from picture it looks like it is broken flush with the head so that won't work. After manifold is off drill it out, get easy out in it with a good bite then heat the area to 350F or so and see if it comes out.

    Motor only comes out the top.
     
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  4. Metastable

    Metastable Formula Junior

    May 4, 2018
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    M8 studs correct.

    You guys think there is enough room if the compressor is taken out to actually do the drill/extractor tool method, without taking out the engine?
     
  5. Reid

    Reid Karting

    May 18, 2018
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    I would remove the manifold disconnect the battery and build a head on it with a mig welder use vise grips it should come right out. Put the ground clamp very close like on the next manifold bolt so you don't cause too much residual current roaming around the car
     
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  6. f355spider

    f355spider F1 World Champ
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    Lots of videos on YouTube on various methods to remove a broken bolt or stud. I recall one where the guy made a drill guide for the opening you have, that centered the drill...drilled, then used an extractor.
    Also, I would have the flange checked for straightness. Broken studs are common on the 430 Scuderia, due to warping of the flange. Uncommon on the F430, but worth checking before reinstallation. You don't want to have it break again, or worse, have a leak. Do you hear ticking upon cold start now? I would assume so, from the leak that exists now.
     
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  7. Tubi Sales

    Tubi Sales Karting
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    If you haven't already I would consider replacing your OEM exhaust manifold while you are at it. It's common that the OEM flanges on the exhaust manifold tend to warp with time causing causing the studs to stretch and have unwanted fatigue. If you are not looking into purchasing a new set of manifolds, I would suggest having the OEM exhaust manifold flange ground flat, replace all the studs (not sure the broken one), and use new gaskets. It would be more of a preventative maintenance type work while your fixing the broke stud.
     
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  8. Metastable

    Metastable Formula Junior

    May 4, 2018
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    Yes, I already have an AP manifold.... not installed. I have seen the various videos, but do you guys think it is possible to drill out the centre of the broken stud and then use the extractor without removing the engine? Anyone know how other broken studs were dealt with on Scuds?

    Also, pretty sure one reason for the break was the lack of exhaust expansion due to the OEM brackets. I also have the Capristo brackets too and a new set of studs.

    I do believe I have heard ticking after start-up.
     
  9. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
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    #9 2NA, Dec 5, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2019
    Removing a broken stud is rarely fun but not always difficult. Consider first why the stud broke. No need to overthink this. In this case it is likely from heat cycling , vibration or overtightening the nut. It is unlikely that the stud broke because it was bottomed out and twisted off. This is good news in that it is possible that it isn't too tightly married to the head and might relatively easily unscrew, if you can get a hold of it. My advice here is to do nothing that might screw it in tighter or cause it to expand in the hole. I've had some success using left-hand drill bits to remove studs. This is a tight place to work and will probably require the use of a right-angle drill to get in there. If you can get someone to build up a little weld on the end of the stud, you might be able to get a small vise-grip on it and just unscrew it. TIG welding would be best. Don't worry about the heat being put in there as this is the hottest place on the engine when it's running and you will be working in a tiny place. Either way, you should be able to get it out without removing the engine. Of course switch off the battery before you start.

    Good Luck, Take Pictures!

    I see your in Canada, my son lives in Ottawa.
     
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  10. voicey

    voicey Formula 3

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  11. Metastable

    Metastable Formula Junior

    May 4, 2018
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    Once I get the exhaust manifold out and hopefully the AC compressor out we will see how much room there is to move around. Question: Why TIG as opposed to MIG?

    I’m in Alberta these days, but use to live in Ontario. Ottawa area has some great white water rafting and the city is a great place to be during Canada day.
     
  12. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
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    TIG is a bit more precise, typically no weld spatter, potentially more focused heat. MIG could work if you know what you're doing.
     
  13. Eric C

    Eric C F1 Rookie
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    Ya'll are making this way more difficult that it needs to be!

    I dealt with 4 broken studs on my F430. First off you need to remove the manifolds. Mine were broke off below the head, so I had no other option than to drill them out then use a easy out. Just be careful and take your time. Make sure you are drilling straight into the screw. Once you start the easy out, you're going to have to give it lots of light taps with your hammer between turns. Don't try and just crank on the easy out and unscrew it with one pass or you'll break it off then you'll be screwed. Turn it back and forth, doing it a little more each time. Make sure and use lubricant too.... Back and Back, back and forth and light taps is the key and it will come out.
     
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  14. Eric C

    Eric C F1 Rookie
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    BTW I broke off the exact same stud as you and I didn't need to remove the AC Compressor.
     
  15. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
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    Always try the easy way first.
     
  16. Metastable

    Metastable Formula Junior

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    Wow those are some impressive pictures. Eric, did you use a right angle drill?
     
  17. Eric C

    Eric C F1 Rookie
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    Nope. I just used a normal hand held drill. There’s lots of room once you remove the headers
     
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  18. Metastable

    Metastable Formula Junior

    May 4, 2018
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    Thanks guys. When the car is back after winter storage, removing the broken stud will be project #1. It is good to know some of you have had experience doing similar jobs. Hopefully all goes well and by the time it is all finished, there will be a new set of headers with the appropriate number of studs.

    Thanks again!
     
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  19. windsock

    windsock Formula Junior
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    I have done dozens of these. if they are bellow the head level I use LH drill bits and take your time. If they are flush I simply mig weld up a pedestal and then weld on a nut, let it cool and it comes right out. This is due to manifold warpage. oblong the end holes for and aft slightly to allow the manifold to grow and then have it machined flat. It was really prevalent in the Scuderia but now we have seen them start showing up on the regular 430.
     
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  20. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob F1 World Champ
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    For me it is always faster if I can get 1/4 of a thread just enough for a nut to not fall off the broken stud, I fill the inside of the nut with a blast of flux core MIG weld. You don't need much at all just touch the broken stud and some on the threads of the nut then just uncrew it (rip it out because you are mad you broke the stud) like a bolt. I do this because a welder is within 20 ft of me at all times. I use flux because I can use it on dirty metal and grease and it has the smallest tip for "if you can see it you can weld it" type access. And that small precise tip makes it easier to blast that I'm pissed bird turd weld in the nut for the count of 1 one thousand with my eyes closed because I'm too lazy to put my welding helmet on. I can't do that with my TIG or my MIG with larger gas lens and I don't have to waste time adjusting regulators or opening up a gas bottle either. An EZ out take way longer and sometimes more access and the poster above is dead right "back and forth" because I have broken a stud even more with an EZ out.
     
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  21. Metastable

    Metastable Formula Junior

    May 4, 2018
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    I like the idea of ovaling the holes at the ends. I will plan to do that on the AP headers. Since those are new and have not been installed, I take it the machining is not necessary.
     
  22. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob F1 World Champ
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    ovaling some holes might be a quick factory solution especially when factory won't use non-oem parts. maybe ovaling is the best solution and the operative word from Winsock is slightly. Since the broke stud has to come out anyway I would 1st try a known good hardware. Let's say the stud is 8x 1.25 x30mm. You can just buy those from ARP. When you work on lots of different cars you can totally feel the difference in fastener quality and metals in general when you use them. For example, I'm fabing/welding in a rollcage for my Mustang racecar right now. Just welding you can feel and see the difference as watch the weld pool between where Ford used high strength steel and regular mild steel in the chassis.
     
  23. Metastable

    Metastable Formula Junior

    May 4, 2018
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    Speaking of studs.....
    When you guys are tightening the studs, do you double up on the nuts to tighten it before putting on the headers, or thread them in by hand and just tighten the nut after the header is on? In other words, do you torque the stud once and the nut a second time, or do you just torque the nut?
     
  24. windsock

    windsock Formula Junior
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    One thing to be very careful of. I love ARP hardware but at this point the lower quality hardware is the weak point. I have seen two cars that had better hardware and aftermarket manifolds that broke the rear casting on the head. See attached picture for the location of the break. I dont have pics of the actual cars. These were all installed elsewhere so I do not know the whole history behind the failures prior to the cars arriving with us. At that point we had to remove the head, weld a repair and machine it. I have never had a factory header come back with a broken stud after I machined it flat and installed new factory hardware and elongated the outside holes roughly .120". This is my experience with 30+ repairs.

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