FAQ: Shopping for a used 360 | Page 3 | FerrariChat

FAQ: Shopping for a used 360

Discussion in '360/430' started by Camdon53, Mar 31, 2008.

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  1. alessiogiorgio

    alessiogiorgio Karting

    Nov 24, 2007
    139
    Italy - Sweden
    Full Name:
    alessio giorgio
    dear Camdon53 many thanks for this wonderfull
    work. for me it is very important because it s 2 years that I m in the middle between 355 and 360. after your words it seems to me that to buy a 360 of last 2 years with few km. I will have less problems and more fun.
    many thanks
    ciao
    Alex
     
  2. andrew911

    andrew911 F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Sep 8, 2003
    2,887
    Northern NJ
    #52 andrew911, Aug 25, 2009
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2009
    Please note that the later cam variators can still be an issue- the update in 2002 360's doesn't necessarily solve the problem. I would want the updated variators vs the original if the car is a 99-01, but would plan on changing this on ANY 360 on some sort of regular basis (I'm thinking every 5-10 years or something)

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=240871

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=253521

    In addition, I found this information quite useful regarding degrading bushings in the 6-speed shifter- doesn't seem to be a huge $ fix, but can potentially make the car much more enjoyable if the shifting is not as smooth as it should be:

    http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=249934&highlight=shifter+bushing

    And finally, it appears cats can be problematic and a pricy fix, which can in a very bad case cause pricy engine repairs or in the absolute worst case car fire..

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=249513&page=2

    Service records are very important to get- if you can't and the car still seems nice, that is something you should factor in to your offer. If there are no valid, reliable records to back up servicing, assume you need to complete all updates and factor accordingly- you may be surprised to the positive if you can determine they were done once you own the car, which is a much better scenario than finding out everything needs to be done after paying top dollar for a car that "looked nice" when you made the offer.

    I posted these in the buyers section because these are things I find important to me as I research a 360- and would also like to thank the contributors of the very informative posts attached above (Rifledriver, Daniel at Jack Russell Racing, Chris (Chrmer3), "dkilka", etc) . These are not cars to buy without a PPI, and are cars that if you buy you have to budget for proper preventative maintenance and potential general repair items.

    I still want one ;)

    -Andrew

    PS- is there any way a moderator can clear out the comments in this sticky that are not related to shopping for and buying a 360? Some posts are not related to the topic or move off topic (not as big of an issue in a normal thread, but with a sticky would be nice to have a higher focus on the title topic). Thanks!
     
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  3. Dohangs

    Dohangs F1 Rookie
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Oct 31, 2008
    3,089
    Florida
    Full Name:
    Spiro
    Great information! Thanks for taking the time to write it down.
     
  4. pmotoring

    pmotoring Formula Junior

    May 8, 2009
    693
    HONG KONG
    Full Name:
    PAT PAT
    you must show us your car, took u one year to purchase..look forward to that
     
  5. adrenalater

    adrenalater Karting

    Dec 8, 2006
    126
    SF Bay Area
    Full Name:
    Jeff Stevens
    #55 adrenalater, Aug 28, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
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  6. Camdon53

    Camdon53 Formula Junior

    Jul 18, 2006
    507
    Texas, USA
    Full Name:
    Jim
    Also note the optional matched color piping on the seats of the 3rd picture. Nice!
     
  7. delta2210

    delta2210 Karting

    Aug 15, 2009
    128
    Las Vegas
    Full Name:
    Jason
    I came close to buying a 1999 360 F1 without a PPI. I saw the car, drove it, and thought it was an excellent car. It had a problem when the owner started it up, then tried to reverse, then started it again and it made some smoke. Turned out it was just extra fuel added in during the warm-up phase. Nonetheless, I did get a PPI to make sure it wasn't a major issue.

    The mechanic who did the PPI did find out that the belts needed changing (3 years) and there was a little oil seep at one of the hose connections. The seller and I split the cost of these two fixes and I ended up ahead by about $300. The more important thing was peace of mind. A compression test had been done and all the systems were checked out. These are very complicated cars and there are many things that can be hiding.

    The PPI was $480. A reasonable price for great peace of mind.
     
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  8. BMo

    BMo Rookie

    Mar 17, 2008
    3
    Oregon
    Great overview. I found this helpful as I begin my process for another car. I spent a good 6 to 8 months a few yrs ago looking for my current car (996 TT, which will remain the DD). The information posted here is invaluable. Thank you.
     
  9. vegas

    vegas Formula Junior

    Nov 22, 2009
    294
    Australia
    Great summary and one I read with interest - I'm shopping now for a 360, some of the info I already knew but plenty I didn't and it has greatly added to the depth of my understanding - thanks
     
  10. Fpassion

    Fpassion Formula Junior

    Jun 1, 2005
    599
  11. brokenarrow

    brokenarrow F1 Rookie

    Sep 25, 2006
    3,737
    Txass
    Full Name:
    Bill
    #61 brokenarrow, Dec 21, 2009
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2009
    I call BS on a few items, especially the F-1 (ask any dealer). I could go on, but I think this is a good start for newbies to ask questions.

    Let's not forget, Rob is not a non-profit, and relies on paying members and sponsors to make this happen for us all. He's a very gracious guy.

    I for one have gained incredible knowledge from this forum that has helped me tremendously, not only in the acquisition phase, but the maintenance as well.

    I like to believe I have imparted a lot of knowledge as well to others in my many projects on my car from headlight replacement, brakes, rotors, sticky-button repair, polishing intakes, powder-coating my challenge, intalling front challenge grills to replacing the tach faces.

    It's simple really. If you've taken more than you've given, join. Also the sponsors are fantastic. I don't know if Rob has a crew of wise-guys or what, but every sponsor I've dealt with has been incredible; standing behind their product or service. Very impressed.

    Joining is cheap, and helps Rob give more to everyone.

    :)
     
  12. Mistiko

    Mistiko Karting

    Jun 6, 2007
    78
    San Juan, PR
    Full Name:
    Juan
    Thanks for this important information
     
  13. Santi

    Santi Formula Junior

    Mar 27, 2009
    330
    Miami Beach
    Full Name:
    Javier Santiago

    How long does the PPI process usually takes?
     
  14. Camdon53

    Camdon53 Formula Junior

    Jul 18, 2006
    507
    Texas, USA
    Full Name:
    Jim
    Obviously it's unknown how long you wait before a technician is assigned to work on the car and how many distractions occur during his work, but it's normally 3-4 hours of actual work for a competent PPI. Too much less doesn't sound like a thorough job to me.
     
  15. SeaNile

    SeaNile Formula Junior

    Jan 25, 2010
    679
    West Chester, PA
    Full Name:
    John
    FWIT the Boxster I just bought went through a 150pt PPI and it took an afternoon.

    --JK
     
  16. Santi

    Santi Formula Junior

    Mar 27, 2009
    330
    Miami Beach
    Full Name:
    Javier Santiago
    Seems to be a reasonable time. Thanx for the info.
     
  17. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
    3,373
    #67 vincenzo, Mar 19, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
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  18. Need4Spd

    Need4Spd F1 Veteran

    Feb 24, 2007
    6,644
    Silicon Valley
    Thanks for this helpful information. I have always wanted a Ferrari, and am thinking that with prices relatively "down" (sorry about that, current owners), it may be time. Cost of ownership, I understand, is as large a question as initial purchase price, but I'm not getting any younger, and, well...... I'm thinking I would want a spider and 6 spd. manual. (And coming from relatively humble beginnings and wanting to avoid other aspects of the "Ferrari tax," I'm likely to keep my ownership of the car as discreet as possible, but that's an entirely other subject.)

    A big question I have is F355 vs. 360. From what I've read, it would seem the 360 is lower on maintenance but higher in initial purchase price. But I'm not wild about the need to swap timing belts every 3yrs./15k miles, either, and it seems 360s are far from bullet proof. Of course the cars differ in character, but from a purely finance point of view, what is the true differential in costs of ownership between the two cars? Reasonable F355s seem to be trading in the $60k-70k range and '02+ 360s in the $110k-120k range, maybe roughly double the price of a F355. It seems that the price differential will pay for a lot of service visits but is the F355 likely to be in the shop for non-scheduled repairs so often that I never get to drive it? If I get a F355 will I always be yearning for a 360 (or 430)?

    FWIW, my current garage houses an e39 M5 and e46 M3 (convertible 6spd.). It's hardly cheap to maintain those cars, either, but I don't have to worry about frequent belt changes and (knock on wood), these cars are very reliable (and paid for). I'm fairly handy with a wrench, so things like brakes and oil services to me are mainly cost of parts and some time on a weekend. But the need for (frequent?) engine-out services on either Ferrari make those services a shop-only proposition.

    So, I recognize I'm posting in the 360/430 forum so there's likely some bias, but would you suggest a 360 or F355?
     
  19. Camdon53

    Camdon53 Formula Junior

    Jul 18, 2006
    507
    Texas, USA
    Full Name:
    Jim
    Lots of threads addressing this issue have appeared here and in the 348/355 section so do some searching and I'm sure you'll find plenty of opinions. In short, I think you'll find the initial price difference isn't quite as large as you think although it is generally accepted that maintenance of a 355 is higher than a 360. Also, DIY work on either car is pretty specialized and may not always be wise for the casual weekend tinkerer.

    I considered both cars very seriously and choose an '02+ F1 360, but there is no doubt the F355 is a beautiful and great driving car. Most guys who own a 355 love it and I think your fear of being in the shop all the time is unwarranted. As great as your BMWs are, I think you'll find either a 355 or a 360 will far exceed your expectations. Best of luck and please report back on your experiences and conclusions.
     
  20. jdlegg

    jdlegg Karting

    Dec 22, 2009
    231
    Bryan
    Full Name:
    James D
    I've been lucky enough to own a '92 348tb, '95 F355 & now an '00 360 (all manuals) over the years. I've had the "pleasure" of paying for belt changes on each. Ferrari's definitely aren't "cheap" to maintain, but are relatively bullet-proof for weekend usage & occasional track day. Typical maintenance has run anywhere from ~$500 to $8K annually. I concur with previous poster, maintenance is best left to the professionals.

    As far as prices are concerned, there's really not that much difference (~$10-15K) between the models right now. May as well go for the latest model with the lowest mileage that you can find. Also, be sure & verify the service history. You don't want to fork over many $10K's for a "basket case".

    My two cents...

    James
     
  21. Need4Spd

    Need4Spd F1 Veteran

    Feb 24, 2007
    6,644
    Silicon Valley
    Still looking for a car, and most of the ones that I seem to want are located far away. One problem has come up, which is that some cars are nowhere near any dealer or independent shop that has experience doing Ferrari PPIs. Some are close to a non-Ferrari dealer that has other high end marques like Porsches or Mercedes, but no Ferrari tech. For 355s, I know that a compression and leakdown test are essential (the infamous valve guide issue), but how essential is that for a 360? And would anyone trust a non-Ferrari tech to do a PPI (maybe w/o the compression or leak down)? Or should I just move on until I find a car that is near enough to have inspected? (You might ask how the car got so far away from a tech/dealer, but some people end up moving, and w/o a nearby Ferrari tech at the new location, you can see why they'd want to sell their car). Advice?
     
  22. Camdon53

    Camdon53 Formula Junior

    Jul 18, 2006
    507
    Texas, USA
    Full Name:
    Jim
    Certainly people have purchased used 355s and 360s without a good PPI. I'm sure some of those cars were great but I'm also sure others were not. Prices are so depressed now that you could be risking repair/restoration costs approaching the purchase price of the car. I would find a way to get it done no matter what -- have the car trucked to an experienced Ferrari tech or fly a competent guy to the car and rent a stall at a nearby non-Ferrari dealer. The cost may seem high but I believe it is still dwarfed by the cost of the car and certainly by the cost of the car plus a bunch of repairs. But that's just me. Your risk tolerance may be higher.

    As for who should do an inspection, I continue to believe someone who actually works on the model in question is needed. An inspection by a really competent Merc technician would certainly be better than no inspection at all, but how thorough could it really be? He's not going to know how to check if the cam variators are upgraded or if the lower subframe is cracked since he's not even aware these are important (although seldom seen) issues to check on a 360. The 360 engine has a rock solid reputation so your risk is not so great to skip the compression test, but there are plenty of other things unique to these cars that are worthy of specialized attention.

    If nothing else, you will certainly find out what the current owner really thinks of his car when you begin arranging for an inspection. As long as you pay for everything and avoid any inconvenience on his part, he should have no objection. If he doesn't want his car inspected by an expert, you just learned a great deal about that car.

    There are so many nice 355s and 360s available now that you can almost certainly find one that's right for you under the right circumstances. If anything about a particular car or seller doesn't seem right, move along. These are amazing cars that really stir the soul so enjoy this part of the journey and keep us posted!
     
  23. Need4Spd

    Need4Spd F1 Veteran

    Feb 24, 2007
    6,644
    Silicon Valley
    #73 Need4Spd, May 1, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I now have a silver (Argento) 360 spider sitting in my garage! After looking at a lot of cars and service records, I decided to go with a 360 instead of a 355. The 355s sure look sweet, and are so classically Pininfarina/Ferrari, but every one I saw had a mound of service issues. Although 360s are hardly problem-free, and perhaps in time will catch up, I could not help but notice how the vast majority of 360 owners had few issues even at mileage comparable to many of the 355s I looked at or into. And the belt services for 355s cost double or more because on 355s this is an engine-out procedure.

    To be sure, 360s cost more and potentially could catch up in maintenance/repair costs, as they have other systems that could be costly to repair. Headers on 355s are 1/2 the cost or less of those for 360s because US 360s have pre-cats in them while 355s don't, and there is some evidence that all 360s can suffer the same kinds of header cracking issues familiar to 355 owners. There are also some of the same rubber-coated parts that can get sticky. But overall, judging repair records alone, the 360s just seemed less problematic and made better sense for me. At the same time, they are generationally a more modern car, closer in equipment to having things we take for granted even in mid-market luxury sedans such as HID lights, and there is that very cool glass window over the engine in both coupes and spiders.

    Speaking of which, next it was coupe vs. spider. Coupes always looked sleeker to me; they are a bit lighter and handle better. I so wanted a coupe. I had visions of track days and how fast the coupe would be and how good a coupe would look just sitting there parked or in the garage. But spiders look good too, especially when their tops are down, and once you are inside, both cars pretty much look the same. The advantage of the spider is that you have lots of fresh air and sunshine if you want it, but in a coupe, all you can do is roll down both windows. Then there is the spouse factor. She told me she'd spend more time with me driving around if the top could come down, so that tipped the scales!

    Then it was 6 speed manual vs. F1. Again, F1s will be faster around a track and probably better in heavy traffic (it was just miserable driving out of LA to get home with the car; separate thread on that: drive or ship it), but the frequency of clutch replacements that seem to be brought about by the way the F1 programs run in 360s, together with the potential for more service issues due to the complexity of the elecro-mechanicals, plus the pure driving involvement of a 3 pedal car made that an easy choice for me (and I had to offset the added mechanical issues I might run into with the spider's top!). The choice of transmission actually made for the hardest part of the search. For some reason it seems that most owners chose the F1 transmission, whether because it was so cutting edge at the time and they figured they'd "own" track days, or whether they had to deal with traffic too much, but whatever, 6 speeds seemed harder to find.

    Finally, there was the choice of color. To me, all Ferraris should be Rosso Corsa, but maybe due to age/conservatism and some laziness in not wanting to wash the car ALL the time led me to Argento. I sooo wanted to get a Rosso Corsa/tan coupe like DrDoug ended up getting, but it had (for me) the wrong roof (but Challenge Grilles! I so love those!) and I decided I wanted something other than red. My friend with a Nero 430 spider seems to spend half his free time washing his car and keeping from introducing swirl marks that even though I wanted something other than red, I wasn't going in that direction. Yellow never really did it for me, and in a lot of ways it is even flashier than red. Silver, on the other hand, doesn't ever look as quite as stunning as a freshly washed and waxed red or black, but even when a bit dirty it still looks "good." Other choices that were on my list were Grigio Titano (metallic grey) and some form of blue (Tour de France Blue seems best to my eyes, but while I've seen it on 430s, I haven't seen it on a 360; and the Pozzi Blue is nice, too - very understated and classy, found more on front engine V12 cars like Maranellos).

    So there we have it! Ferrari of Newport Beach had a nice 2003 spider with only ~15k miles, and besides not having Challenge Grilles or shields, the only thing it lacked was a Tubi exhaust. The lads there (George, Pat and Chris; all terrific guys - if you are in their area you owe it to yourself to drop by for a chat by their espresso bar) did a great job finding me a Tubi and installing it, so that was that!

    My thanks to everyone who has contributed to this board, as I scoured past posts and did a lot of homework and looking before getting this car.
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  24. Moopz

    Moopz F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Jun 29, 2004
    5,348
    Orlando, FL
    Need4spd: congratulations! I remember you from the M5 board (handle is Moopz). It seems our tastes are evolving similarly but it's going to be a little longer for me. Enjoy it, man!
     
  25. PhilNotHill

    PhilNotHill Two Time F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Jul 3, 2006
    27,855
    Aspen CO 81611
    Full Name:
    FelipeNotMassa
    The OP is a masterpiece IMVHO. Well written and well thought out.

    Everyone has prefernces for different reasons. But there are too many good cars out there today not to get a turkey. Wish I had read somethind likr this when I bot my first Fcar, an F355 F1 GTS.

    My two other cars have 3 peddles so I wanted something different and it's faster. Well worth the cost IMVHO.

    Color: Get what turns YOU on.
    355 or 360: drive both then get the one YOU like best. For me it is the 360.

    Good luck and post some pics please.
     
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