Fatality at PCA event

I hope you don't mind me asking, but were you driving a rag or hard top?

But, yeah, you're right about T9 in a Miata. It is the full-tilt boogie all the way, but you have to hit the groove just right. You don't want to drop a wheel, but you also don't want to lift. One look at the tire skids going to the left tells you all you need to know about those who lifted.

I did my racing school there at Skippy. I only nailed T9 once in three days. But man oh man, it sure is fun!

Dale

 

As far as I am concerned, this is a mistake by the racing orgs that allow it. Propylene glycol, while non toxic, is not necessarily less slippery that ethylene glycol.

 

Dale,
I was driving a rag top with the top down. I had a Double Diagonal Hard Dog roll bar that saved my life. If I had a hard top I am sure I would not have torn up my hand on the ground.

I hope I can master T9 when I get back on the track. I plan on doing DE days with another Miata, once I experienced what it is like to drive without any electronic aids, I may never take my 360 or BMW back to the track.

I see you have a Cayman, the previous track day I did, I let a white Cayman pass me going into turn three at Laguna Seca cause it was on my ass, as I got back up to speed going through turn 4 I had to stand on the brakes cause all I saw was dirt/smoke in the air and no track. The Cayman when wide around turn 4 on the left and then shot across the track and hit the wall on the right. As I crawled through I noticed both airbags deployed and the driver and instructor were moving around. Found out later both were OK.

That same day a red BMW went off after turn 6 on the right and came across the the track and smacked the wall on the left.

I was well aware of the "danger" at the track and what could happened. I accepted that risk and luckily I did not get hurt. Hopefully clubs can continue offer low cost DE days and still keep everyone as safe as possible.

My only criticism of most DE days I have attended would be at the speed at which corner workers get to a stopped vehicle to check on a driver/car. A few minutes could be the difference between life and death.

--tony

 

Damn, who was running this DE event? It sure sounds like things got out of control. For a Cayman to lose it that badly at T4, the driver must have been going w-a-y too fast. My guess is he turned in going flat out and then freaked resulting in the spin to the right. Ditto for T6. Bottom line is that there is no way that street cars should have been going that fast.

Do yourself a favor and drop this DE crap. You should instead sign up for the 3-day Skippy racing school. Not only will you learn a lot of race craft, but you will learn so much about Laguna. One of the best parts is the van around drive. In addition to learning the line (but get the jump seat!), the instructors will break down every corner for you in detail.

I'll never forget when we stopped at T6 and T9 and the instructor asked us what we saw. After letting us make several wrong guesses, he pointed out the tire snakes curving off to the left side of the track (both T6 and T9 are left-hand turns). His comment was this is what happens when you lift at the wrong time!

Seriously, it will be the best money you have ever spent.

Dale

 

NCRC http://www.ncracing.org/ , they are nice people. They made the track available to us at very reasonable rates. I do not think you can hold them responsible for our actions. We had a drivers meeting. They were clear about the rules and driving over our ability. They do black flag you if you spin and or get wheels off the track. I got blacked flagged for spinning at turn 11. I went in, they asked me why, I had to explain what I did wrong, they told me to be more careful and sent me back out. All in all I think they ran a nice low cost event.
Even if it cost more, I suspect people are still going to hit the wall.

Thanks for the good advice, I do plan on taking those classes as soon as I can fit them into my schedule. After I take a three day class then what?

I am still in favor of doing DE days. For the most part they are safe learning experiences. I think after my first few track days a few years ago, I learned what it takes to stop a car traveling at high speed, I became a much more cautions driver on the street.

 

You said it best!!!!

 

Take the 2-day racing course and then go racing in a real race car, i.e., one that has a cage.

Dale

 

My heart goes out to the instructor who passed at CMP. It's a tragic reminder this is a dangerous sport.

When you step into your car and go on a race track you are taking a huge risk. A risk of losing your life and the life of others. It's serious business.

You have to take personal resposibility.

No attorney in a court room suing is going to save anybody's life.

You need to TAKE PERSONAL responsiblity for your safety at a race track.

If you think the track is too dangerous. Don't go out.

If you think the other drivers are reckless. Don't go on the track.

If you don't like the waiver you sign. Then don't track your car.

If you think the event organizers are too un-safe. Then don't drive your car at the event and ask for your money back.

If you don't think you have the skill to be at the event. Then go home.

I say all of this because I have done all the above.

Sometimes I don't like the track. I go home.

I think the drivers are reckless or don't have enough experience or vice versa. I get off the track.

If the event is too un-safe. I go home get my money back.

I didn't have enough skill to be on a race track. I went to a driving school.

You have to exercise your personal responsibilty. Everyone is so conditioned to point the finger everywhere else but themselves.

 

Very well put. Difficult to be disciplined with all the excitement at the track but good advice.

 

Dale:

I disagree with your assesment of the civil justice system here. Yes, anyone can bring a lawsuit. But as has been said in the past, it is expensive for a lawyer to file a case, betting hes going to win. A lawyer who files a case must front all the legal work (time), front court costs, and in this case must front the cost of Experts to prove liability. These cases are very expensive to prosecute. And the casulaty insurance industry as a whole, has in recent years a policy of fighting all claims, meritorious and not as a deterance to filing claims. Lawyers today that make a habit of filing frivolous cases often do not make money or go bankrupt.

I agree that "personal responsibility" is the way to go. And the person responsible should be stuck with the loss or some portion of it.

I only know what I've read on this forum. But if this case came into my office, first I'd look at the waiver. Napolis is right in most jurisdictions, you can't generally waive gross negligence in advance. Therefore the standard of proof of fault is not only high, you have to prove some did something really really bad. But the difficulty for most victims in this situation is not really the waiver, but how the waiver explains the assumption of the risk. If I get on a racetrack, I'm assuming the risk of things happening I cannot expect or control.

If this case came into my office I would do a quick and dirty assesment from the facts presented to determine if I want to go foward. If I had just the facts here, this is what I'd think:

I do not see a lawsuit against any of the following being worth investment by any half decent victim's rights lawyer:

1)PCA, no evidence of fault
2)Driver, no evidence of fault
3)Car that dropped fluid, no real gross negligence. Very difficult to prove that inadequate maintence caused this (he also pulled over). Possibly have some liability if it could be proven inadequate maintence and bad clamp, but you'd likely never make it to a gross negligence standard. And I think you assume the risk that coolent could be dropped by a car ahead of you.
4) corner worker/track conduct, no evidence of fault.

What does not sound right in this senario is a car hitting a tree and a tree limb entering the car and killing the passanger. This is an abnormal situation. If that is what happend, and there is proof of cars hitting trees in this area, then the victims family has a claim against the track and the track designer's insurance. I believe that it is the track and the track designer should be responsible for designing a track that is reasonably safe. If the facts determine that a car can reasonably inpact a tree on a course, then then I can see a court allowing a jury to determine if an insurer covers the fault that may have contributed in part to the man's death.

That being said if anyone is concerned with safety, you are taking a big risk at speed in a street car. Better to have all safety equiptment in a car with a cage (challenge car or the like). If your concern is liability, for very little money you can by track insurance for liability (even for collision damage).

 

every time im on track i ask myself why are there trees so close to the course? i just dont get it