FCA Platinum winners: What kept you from 100 points?

A bit newer, so may not be totally relevant to this discussion. My 1995 F355 scored 98.5 at Concorso in 2010. At the time the car had 1,600 miles on it. I put about 100 of those miles on, driving it to Concorso. Has 5,200 miles on it now.

I lost half point for a sticky vent (since re-finished). I think it must have gone sticky that very day in the sun, because I don't remember it being sticky when I was detailing it for the show. I lost a point for "paint and polish". I'm suspecting that this is because of the clear bra. I thought the paint looked flawless.

At the time, I didn't realize that there was such a thing as "Platinum" I wonder if I came home one award short of what I should have.
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To Crall's point, re barbie doll, etc... these are pictures of original upholstery from an early 1960's Ferrari--right side and left side. Would a restored car get points dedution showing up looking like this?

john
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I have to agree that Dyke's credentials are about as good as they get, and I can't argue with anything he says. But Kev is also correct; every judging seminar at which I have appeared has emphasized the "as built" aspect of judging. But I guess it's pretty hard when viewing a sparkling new 2-stage paint job to mark it down as better than original.

It's also true about qualified judges, especially with respect to judging the earlier cars. The great majority of F-owners have newer models, and the guys who actually owned the earlier cars when they hadn't yet been molested are becoming like the proverbial hen's teeth. The result is that occasionally some poor 308 or 360 driver will get thrown in as a judge in a class of early cars. Does he have a clue about the correct color of the air-horn trumpets, or the correct hose clamps? Not likely. Thank heaven for the small but knowledgeable group of restorers and old-timers who still show up. And for the owners themselves, who often are more hip than the judges!

 

I don't feel "better than new" restorations should be marked down, but I'm uncomfortable that, for example, an original interior that has been remarkably well preserved for 50 years (which inevitably will have some flaws compared to a new interior) will have points knocked off.

I have a question about vintage interiors for those that were around when the early cars were new. When I see restored vintage Ferrari interiors at cars shows, the vast majority of them don't look right to me. It doesn't seem like they have the same type of leather or sheen and basically they seem pretty far off from matching the vintage interiors on preserved cars. Not being around when the cars were new, my only reference is comparing them to preserved interiors with patina, so it may be my reference point that is off. My question is: Do you find that most of the high-end interior restorations are an accurate recreation of when they were new, or or they quite different from new as they appear to my eye?

 

Peter: Your question about interiors is a great illustration of the difficulty in restoring the early cars. I am, as we speak, struggling to define what an original interior for a Competition California actually looked like. Of course, the car currently has a beautiful interior that was commented on in a magazine as being carefully duplicated from the original interior. The trouble is that it is wrong for the most part. The few photos of this car that we can find taken back in the day do confirm that what is there now is not correct, but try to find a photo of the kick panels in a Competiton California when they were new!! Why is it that of the thousands of photos in my archives, I NEVER have the shot I need! What I now know is that LWB California's had three very different types of interiors throughout their production life. So I have to find an existing original photo of a car with a serial number very close to this car that might give me more insight into what this California was like when new.

On to your specific question. Many, but not all Ferraris from the 1950-60 era used Connolly leather. Many 275's used Franzi leather. Connolly is out of business, so finding the exact leather, which was surface dyed (not the more expensive vat dying process) and had a fairly smooth grain, is very difficult. Most of today's leathers are of a higher quality than the leather used back in the day. Hirsch has a "Grand" product that is claimed to be similar to the old Connolly, and I will probably us it, as it is close, but a little "duller" finish. Carpeting is another issue, with Wilton 1 being very similar to the original, but of a higher quality. Most TDF's today are restored with Wilton 1 carpet, but the original carpet in these cars was like household loop carpet ( we are lucky enough to have what is probably the only remaining TDF with its original interior). I would bet that any number of TDF's had the original carpet ripped out because the restorer could not believe the car was built with such cheap carpet.

Just for fun, a 365 Boxer with black leather, to be correct, should have blue leather crudely dyed black. It seems the factory got a "deal" on a large supply of blue leather, so to make a black interior, they just dyed what they had.

Have you ever seen valve covers in wrinkled blue paint? Yes there were cars produced this way. How would that be received at a concours?

 

Fair enough - my apologies to Mr. Ridgley. I meant no disrespect - I just didn't know from the screen name who it was that was commenting. I have heard of Mr. Ridgley before, but admittedly only know a very little of his experience and reputation. Thanks for the important lesson.

 

I am heartened and appreciate your post, thank you. Restoration is all about preservation.

You will appreciate the following photograph of the front wing of a 8c 2900 Spyder showing the various paint layers acquired over the past 75 years.

You have
The metal wing built by Carrozzeria Touring
A black undercoat
A maroon second undercoat
The original Alfa red paint (matt)
A nasty yellow self levelling primer from an earlier poor restoration
A horrible orange red respray
The final red and very shiny paint that adorns the car

The restorer is carefully removing all of the later layers to expose as much of the original paint as possible. He will then spray in the gaps to match the original paint. Not the cheapest option but when finished it will look like it did in 1938. Shame about the other examples !
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George, respectfully, some reasons why people take it too seriously.

First, an owner may have spent many hours of research and hundreds of thousands of dollars restoring a car, his only goal having been to "make it as correct as possible."

Second, a car that has earned platinum status at a show like Cavallino may be worth more than one that has not.

Third, though Ferrari are criticized here for having a crass profit motive in the Classiche Program, one rarely reads that many of the experts in the Ferrari world are also in the Ferrari business in one way or another. The profit motive, and ego, are everywhere.

I like to drive them - in fact, that's the only reason I own them - but you can't overlook the unintended consequences of concours awards and the environment in which they exist.

 

Any 40-50 year old interior can be replaced. But it is a reproduction and not original. Wonderful things can be done to restore and preserve old ,particularly leather interiors and I agree these should be rewarded.There needs to be more importance to given to the original aspects of a car in judging and selection of points than to just elaborate reproductions particularly when the reproduction bears little or no resemblance to the original.This should go for all aspects of the car, not just interiors,with no points taken to make the car road road legal and safe. It would be relatively easy to stipulate what basic road wothy and safety features are accepted for no point deductions. An owner showing a car could be given a check list of accepted legal and safety modifications to be filled out and made available at the time of judging.I think this could eliminate a lot of controversy particularly for a car that also competes in speed events. tongascrew

 

I have a 2004 575M that just was awarded 98.5 points at the recent 2012 FCA National meet in Palm Springs. 1 point was deducted for a TUBI exhaust rather then stock. 1/2 point was deducted for a paint blemish under the drivers side rear view mirror that was undetectable to all but the judge. 6 experts in the field looked at the area mentioned and could not find it unless directed to it by the judge.
Interestingly the usual 1/2 point deduction for a clear Bra was not deducted. I think this should be reguarded as an exempt item as it allows many more cars to be driven on the roads without fear of the occasional road scar.
I owned 2 Ferrari 365 GT 2+2s which after 45 years I think would be virtually impossible to be 100 point cars. I had a deduction taken once for incorrect plating on carb hold down nuts and another for similar incorrect clamps on a hose but ignored was the fact I had correct wipers and a set of working winshield washers , which no other car had in class.
Judging in class where there were 6 identical perfect Daytonas got to such small details as to be rediculous. How many people know all the details of the older cars other then Tom S.
What is deducted from the finest restorations ? If Wayne Obrey or ... does a car who can say this is wrong.

 

Not Platinum here as you know Rob, but I thought it was interesting that I got dinged for 'Non Ferrari Color' and 'Wrong seat belt retractors right and left' at CI. Also 2 points for aftermarket exhaust.

I guess they just assumed it was a non Ferrari color as no one asked. I also thought you could not be penalized for safety related items???

 

I am well aware of all of the above, being involved in judging for a few years. Some of the above are self fulfilling prophesies, and that is what I find wrong. The more some people obsess over details (or pay large sums for someone else to restore their car), the more they become upset if they aren't lauded for same. If someone wants to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to have volunteers who are everything from policemen to corporate ceo's judge their car, so be it, but understand it is supposed to be for fun. Otherwise, they're setting themself up for grief.
And I applaud you for driving yours. In fact, I'm sure you have something I'd love to have a ride in, some day.

George

 

Thanks for the response and sorry for the delay in response (have been sick). It sounds like the surface dying might be the primary factor in the difference I see. Original leather always seems to have a smoother grain and a slight sheen, where replacement leather always looks too flat with different grain. It just doesn't fit to my eye.

I don't have the same concern with paint. I'm fine with a vintage car that is painted better than what the factory produced because it still looks appropriate (and today's polishes can make even original single stage paint look like clear coat).

I don't think replacement interiors should be marked down of course, but it seems an original interior with modest wear should be rated at least as high.

 

Agree with this 100%. The logistical difficulty with rewarding preserved original interiors is that the scoring system is entirely subtractive. There are points off for flaws, so it's difficult to score perfect since the original interior almost certainly will have some type of flaw. It seems like they should modify scoring to have an "additive" component for originality -- maybe allowing something like 2 points that are additive for how original a car is.

 

Will you lose point for a non original paint? And a different color?

 

^ yes
ed

 

Take a look at Stanly Nowak's book and you will see that each of the "competition 250 LWB Californias" had a wide variety of modifications specificly directed to make the car more competitive. The SCCA disallowed many of these as not being "stock" including just the adding of an oil cooler on the Grossman car. A buyer could specify all kinds of modifications though there might be a more of a delay in the completion of the car. As far as I can tell there was no sort of Lusso interior for those cars as there was no "competition" interior eather. These cars were a "special order" car. Except for "auto show" models the original owners had a large variety of options available.The only signifigant one not available, in my opinion, was the chassis which could have used some stiffining. There were several different interiors available but I am sure if you wanted leopard skin seats they might just provide them.There was no "competition interior" package offered and you will see from the pictures of these "hot rod" cars, the interiors were of what could be called "Lusso". Pick one you like or copy one of the originals and you will do fine. tongascrew

 

You will not lose points if the car is painted a color that was available, at the time, from Ferrari. So, you could take a brown car and paint it red, with no point deduction. This was discussed at length at Cavallino.

 

How can you know the orinal color of the car? It's not in the build sheet.

john

 

Tongascrew: Finally got the California interior all figured out. Lots of photos and careful disassembly of the car. LWB California s used three different basic interior combinations throughout their production life. The trick comes when the car falls productionwise between the end of one interior style and the beginning of the next interior style. But finally found enough original photos to sort the mystery.

 

As long as it is a period color. No deduction.

 

Pininfarina or Scagletti records. The factory has this data, usually, as this information is the Classiche book for certified cars

 

Thanks Tom, that's what I guessed.

john