Ferrari 308 QV Fuel Pump Voltage Problem | FerrariChat
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Ferrari 308 QV Fuel Pump Voltage Problem

Discussion in '308/328' started by K 308, Aug 8, 2022.

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  1. K 308

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    #1 K 308, Aug 8, 2022
    1985 Ferrari 308 QV Euro

    Situation: Vehicle sat for 9 years, finally retired and am able spend time working on the car (Yep embarrassed I left the car sit). My 13 year old son is finally interested in helping me get it running (Big Win). Past problem, before the storage, was that the car had a stuck check valve off the fuel pump. Able to clean-up and reinstall the valve and got it working and put it in storage. So I thought that the check valve would be one of my needed fixes during our work.

    Status of the Fix:
    · Installed new battery
    · Vehicle turns over but will not start
    · Found that the fuel pump is not getting voltage
    · Checked fuse block and fuses…seem OK. Voltage (key on or off) at bottom of each fuse.
    o I did try to tone the fuel pump positive wire to the fuse box – no go
    o Also ran a negative line from battery to fuel pump (-) – no help
    · Emptied the old fuel from the tanks
    · Removed the fuel pump and was able to run the pump with 12V outside power source – worked fine – so reinstalled with new check valve
    · Still no power to the fuel pump
    · Joined FerrariChat and found the thread about the fuel safety switch on the air flow sensor off the fuel distribution system – sounded like my problem
    · My Air-Flow Sensor Plate was stuck – sounded even more like my problem
    · Unstuck and cleaned the plate, so was free to move with air and tried system – no go
    · The plate moves down around 1/4” to 3/8” when we try to start the vehicle
    · Did some trouble shooting on the air flow system (afs). The afs plug has two prongs and when I depress the sensor plate, I see no difference in their continuity. Also the left prong is grounded.
    · Unplugged the sensor plug – still no go on voltage – so this sensor unplugged should have bypassed the system and given 12V to the fuel pump while key is in position II. – it didn’t
    · Got advice on the location of the relays from FerraiChat (thorn). Switched both the fuel pump relay and the start injector relay with other relays from same family – no go on voltage at fuel pump

    Current State:
    · No fuel in vehicle, although I found unleaded - no ethanol – 91 Octane – ready to go with gas!
    · Still no voltage to fuel pump
    · Running out of ideas
    Any help would be appreciated, thanks for reading my predicament.
    New to FerrariChat! Second Post!

    Thanks Kirk
     
  2. thorn

    thorn F1 Rookie
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    #2 thorn, Aug 8, 2022
    Cycle ignition full (start) to ON.

    1. Check voltage from Left Fuse A to Fuel Pump Relay pin 86.
    2. Check voltage from Left Fuse C to Fuel Pump Relay pin 87.
    3. Check resistance from Fuel Pump Relay pin 30 to Fuel Pump Positive terminal.
    4. Confirm continuity from Fuel Pump Relay pin 85 to ground.
     
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  3. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #3 Steve Magnusson, Aug 8, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2022
    Please explain this "no difference in their continuity" statement more. The way it should work is:

    Airflow plate in rest position = 0 Ohms between the pins

    Airflow plate deflected hardly at all or more = Infinite Ohms between the pins

    If you always have 0 Ohms between the pins = the fuel pump would only run during starter motor cranking

    If you always have infinite Ohms between the pins = the fuel pump should run with just the key "on" and the engine not running, and the engine should run just fine. (This is the same condition as unplugging the afs safety switch.)

    Another simple test that you can do is remove the fuel pump relay and use a jumper wire to connect the female metal 30 terminal in the relay socket to the female metal 87 terminal in the relay socket:

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    With the jumper in place = the fuel pump should run even with the key "off".
     
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  4. K 308

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    #4 K 308, Aug 9, 2022
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    The jumper wire from lower 87 pin to 30 pin had no effect on the fuel pump.
     
  5. K 308

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    #5 K 308, Aug 9, 2022
    View attachment 3376231

    The jumper wire from lower 87 pin to 30 pin had no effect on the fuel pump.

    On the air flow system, which is unplugged. Did some review of the situation. When I connect the two prongs, I was getting Infinite Ohm...played some and found if I ground both plugs...they start working like you explained...so all good. Putting this issue on the back burner until I get voltage to the fuel pump.

    Thanks both "thorn" and Steve for the help...this is so wonderful to have access to experts!
     
  6. K 308

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    #6 K 308, Aug 10, 2022
    Ok, finally got under the 308 with a wire. So I checked the continuity from fuel pump relay pin 30 to fuel pump positive terminal: no continuity. So I checked the lower pin 87 and did get continuity. So here are all the results:
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    Thanks for the help and do we have any thoughts on going forward?
    Kirk
     

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  7. K 308

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    #7 K 308, Aug 15, 2022
    OK, time for me to regroup. So finished all the suggestions. Started to trace wires from behind the relay plate. Found that that the aftermarket alarm system that was on the car when purchased, which never worked or held back the car, must have finally gotten activated with the new battery. The security mode was to cut the power to the fuel pump. So in process of removing the alarm...hopefully will get voltage at the fuel pump...then moving onto the next issue. Everything is making more sense to me as I learn about the 308.

    Thanks for everyone's help!
    Kirk
     
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  8. mike996

    mike996 F1 Veteran

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    #8 mike996, Aug 15, 2022
    The first thing to do with an aftermarket alarm system is to remove it and return all wiring to OEM! ;)
     
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  9. K 308

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    #9 K 308, Sep 5, 2022
    Removed alarm, and got voltage at fuel pump! So the car did start up - talking really rough - but started after 10 years of storage. I let my 13 son Collin, who has been my ignition started for testing 180 degrees position 2 and 200 degrees position 3, start the car as another test. Pic included when the car started:
    • Installed new check valve after fuel pump
    • Installed new accumulator due to leaks
    • New injectors and o-rings on order, injector puller ordered
    • New NGK spark plugs arrived, ready to install
    • Hooked the safety plate (after cleaning) back up to it's relay...no difference in performance
    • Working on the checking vacuum hoses and found a corroded fitting under the intake manifold
    • So investigated the hose, which came from the coolant expansion tank. Upper connection from hose to under the intake manifold - breather pipe.
    • Took off the rear deck hood, which allowed 360 access view to issue. Also makes the spark plugs and injectors so much more access. Recommend this..
    • Got the hose off with 6mm wrench - pic showing hose.
    • Also including the attachment area under the intake manifold - pic
    • Also I we continue to run engine, it has smoothed out some of the roughness...good news. We still have spark plugs and injectors coming up.
    • So my questions are as follows:
    1. Is this a threaded connection that has gone really bad...wire brush on it tomorrow...is there a part number or do I have to get the large pipe section
    2. Does this hose feed coolant back into system - closed loop from overflow
    3. Or does this hose let air out of the system back into expansion tank.
    4. Will it affect safety or performance as I continue to remove issus
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  10. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #10 Steve Magnusson, Sep 5, 2022
    It's a separate part (106241), but getting the corroded old bits out the larger crossover pipe (while not damaging the female threads) will take some effort. Hill Engineering makes a better 106241 from stainless steel that you can get from Ricambi America:

    https://www.ricambiamerica.com/the-hill-engineering-collection/other-parts.html

    https://www.ferrariparts.co.uk/diagram/ferrari/308-quattrovalvole-usa/019-water-pump-and-pipings

    It's a common problem, and something that must be fixed.
     
  11. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    #11 BigTex, Sep 7, 2022
    This....go with the Hill Stainless nipples on all the engine collant fittings.

    No slam on Ricambi at all, it's simply a beter part amd also note that collant additives like Royal Purple Purple Ice have anti corrosion additives.
    Our aluminum engines with cast iron bits threaded into them are like a science experiment in electrolysis!!!

    HTH
     
  12. Dr Tommy Cosgrove

    Dr Tommy Cosgrove Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #12 Dr Tommy Cosgrove, Sep 8, 2022
    Is that black or metallic black paint?
     
  13. K 308

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    #13 K 308, Sep 8, 2022
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  14. K 308

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    #14 K 308, Sep 8, 2022
    OK, got the manifold off the car without taking off the intake manifold - just throttle body. Used vice grips on first attempt to tug union (right side), about 70% force - union is soft material, so didn't budge. Trying to be cautious as we go. SS union arrived from Hill engineering/Ricambi. Suggestions? My current plan is to use penetrating oil on both sensor and union overnight. Take off the sensor in the morning. Then use my heat gun and freeze spray on manifold and union back and forth couple times, then back to vise grips. Also see picture on the sensor, it looks like it has white silicon around the threads. Anyone have some insight? Thanks for everyone's help - this forum is amazing.
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  15. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #15 Steve Magnusson, Sep 12, 2022
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2022
    Wouldn't be too hopeful that it won't just break off near-flush with the vise grips, but, if it does come out = winner :)

    If that happens, Level 2 escalation (to use Rainman Ray's vocabulary) would be to jam an ez-out into the ID of the remaining portion below the surface and pray.

    Level 3 escalation = take it to a Machine Shop (along with the replacement part so they know what the corresponding female thread is -- can you tell if it is a straight thread or some sort of tapered pipe thread?).
     
  16. mike996

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    #16 mike996, Sep 13, 2022
    "If that happens, Level 2 escalation (to use Rainman Ray's vocabulary) would be to jam an ez-out into the ID of the remaining portion below the surface and pray."

    PRAY is right! Be careful using EZ-outs!!

    I'll bet I have had as many EZ-out failures as successes and when they fail you can have a far worse problem than you had before. A broken off EZ-out jammed in a fitting is a real nightmare since it is hardened steel and impervious to most drill bits...

    Being hardened, they don't "give" at all, they just snap!
     
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  17. K 308

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    #17 K 308, Sep 13, 2022
    First off thanks Steve and mike996 for following this thread. I have been silent for a couple of days, been crying... So my second major mistake: #1. Leaving the car in storage for 10 years...#2. cracking the manifold with an Ez - out. This was 5 days ago. So I was using two heat guns and freeze spray to heat the joint up to over 210 F and cool to 100 F. Did this 3 times. So the vise-grip just ripped the union off as it was turned - not a budge. So I did go to an Ez-out, and I will admit I was gentle to start with but then gave it a TUG as it was not budging. Not thinking about breaking the Ez-out or the manifold. So I started drilling the union with progressively larger drills - took 5 drill bits. Then used a small hardened pic to collapse the union. Threads were not damage. Attaching pics of the process. So I have a buddy in California that is a car guy, built his own sand rail. He is going to try to TIG weld and re-thread (pipe threads - both sensor and union) the manifold for me...takes a village. Hopefully this works out this week. Meanwhile as I was checking hoses, found this crack in a coolant hose (see pic). So I guess a coolant hose kit (maybe a fuel hose kit) is in my future. Trying to decide to just replace with original type hoses or upgrade to the Scuderia Rampante silicon hoses...any thoughts? Rampante hoses are Expensive with a capital E. I tend to lean on upgrading as long as we are upgrading. So the big question is if I read your posts 5 days ago would I have been less aggressive with the Ez - out...I guess we will never know... Thanks again for the help - need it.
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  18. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    #18 yelcab, Sep 13, 2022
    At least it came out. Nine years not running, well it's a good thing you have found your passion in your retirement. You will need it.
     
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  19. mike996

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    #19 mike996, Sep 13, 2022
    FWIW, though it's not a proper fix, I have seen JB weld repairs used in similar situations that are still doing fine after 20 years! OF COURSE a proper weld/rethread is the right thing to do. ;)

    Re silicone hoses - I don't know what the silicone hose kit to which you referred contains but FWIW, silicone hose is not appropriate for fuel or oil.
     
  20. K 308

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    #20 K 308, Sep 19, 2022
  21. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    #21 yelcab, Sep 19, 2022
    I had to fix this off the car a couple years ago and I cannot remember the exact thread size. But you have a new one, so what is the problem? Simply drill out the old one stepping up the size of the bit a little until the threads start to show. Then work off the remnant bits to save the rest of the threads. Screw in the new one.
     
  22. K 308

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    #22 K 308, Oct 10, 2022
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  23. yelcab

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    #23 yelcab, Oct 10, 2022
    We all need buddies like that. Can we befriend him?
     
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  24. K 308

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    #24 K 308, Oct 10, 2022
    Probably wouldn't like him...McLaren type...but he built and races a sand rail for fun...
     

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