360 - Ferrari 360 Spider - misfire & MAF & mystery connections | FerrariChat

360 Ferrari 360 Spider - misfire & MAF & mystery connections

Discussion in '360/430' started by achova, May 10, 2023.

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  1. achova

    achova Rookie

    Apr 12, 2017
    4
    Mercer Island, WA
    Full Name:
    Adam Chovanak
    I have a 2001 360 Spider that's been off the road for many years with no history of service prior to my ownership.

    Some Background
    • ECUs / Immobilizer / Alarm to ECU Doctors
      • ECU tested good
      • Purchasedimmobilizer bypass
    • Starter replaced
    • Car starts / runs / drives - went into limp-mode after 10 miles
    • ECU re-train procedure from Aldous Voice https://aldousvoice.com/2013/01/16/ferrari-360-ecu-reset/
    • Chased misfires ultimately loosing all 4 cylinders on the left-bank
      • P1104 DC to AC Converter Request Status Mismatch
      • P0305 / P0306 / P0307 / P0308
      • P0300 Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected)
      • P1198 Radiator Temperature Sensor High (temp gauge always steady & no signs of overheating)
    • Chasing relays & cleaning with DeOxIT / Isopropyl / etc - situation improved dramatically
      • 30A (white) 20A (black) & red relays behind the driver's seat cleaned - a couple new ones.
      • Plastic electrical plugs cleaned
    • Swapped coil-packs from one bank to the other and re-trained ECU - better but still some feeling of misfire particularly below 4000 RPM
      • P0102 Mass or Volume Air Flow Sensor 'A' Circuit Low
      • P1446 (pending)
    • Swapped MAF from one bank to the other - no change
      • P0102 Mass or Volume Air Flow Sensor 'A' Circuit Low (pending)
      • P1445 (pending)
    I've searched the forum for other similar problems. I've ordered new coil-packs but seems the problems are centered on MAF now. Wonder if the group has any thoughts.

    On a related note,
    1. I see a ground on the back of the left cylinder but the right block has no ground at the same point.
    2. Right-bank unplugged - terminal I can't identify
    3. Touching the two wires shown (grn/brn & grey) behind the driver's seat seems to alter the rate of misfire
    4. Oil pressure switch has only one connection - blade connection open
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  2. sammyf

    sammyf Karting

    Aug 13, 2004
    213
    Northern California
    With you car being a spider and all the error codes pointing to Bank 2 (LH/Driver) there is a likelihood your RH ECU is failing (which is not uncommon). Trying swapping the ECU's Left->Right and Right->Left
     
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  3. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    #3 Qavion, May 11, 2023
    Last edited: May 11, 2023
    Normal. Each bank has multiple grounds, mostly on the front of the engine. That additional earth on the left bank is a special instrument ground.

    Hard to identify without wire colours. There are multiple sensors and actuators in that area (knock sensor, timing variator, secondary air solenoid valve (USA only), ...). Is your car an import? Secondary air wire colours are blue/green and violet.

    Is it green/brown or brown/green? The only relevant similar colour combo I could behind the seats was the RH Motronic relay coil control wire. What it's doing behind the driver's seat, I don't know (assuming you have a LH drive car). If you were confused and it was the RH side, I could give you some wiring checks to carry out between the relay and the RH Motronic ECU.

    There is an Immobiliser output to the Doorlock ECU with the same coloured wire behind the LH seat.
    The other brown/green wires are in the engine bay or related to windscreen wiper/washers.

    The grey wire will be harder to track down. There is some immobiliser/start-related wiring behind the LH seat which has grey wires.

    Normal. The output goes directly to the instrument panel where it is processed to produce both the gauge reading and the oil pressure warning.
     
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  4. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    #4 Qavion, May 11, 2023
    Last edited: May 11, 2023
    Disregard. I see that the photo does indeed show the LH side. Pity.... I thought we were onto something. Disturbing those wires could be also moving other wires. I see a lot of ignition (yellow) and live battery wires (red) in your photo.

     
  5. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    Are these all bank 1 (RH) codes?

    P1445 is Catalyst Protection Active on bank 1.
    I think P0102 is bank 1, too.

    Maybe you could check the volts on the RH MAF plug.

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    There should be about 12 volts on pin 2 and 5 volts on pin 4.

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    (pin numbering as seen from contact side of harness plug, not wire side)
     
  6. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
    Project Master

    Oct 29, 2005
    4,258
    Gibraltar
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    360trev
    You didn't say if your car is an F1 or a Gated. The first thing you'll need to do is post your Engine ECU part number (its on the sticky label on the back of the ECU - because your car is a 2001 MY US spec) because different model years have different fault codes. I've assumed its a 2001 F1 and pulled these codes directly from a US spec firmware.

    Ok lets get onto your translation of the fault codes because already I can see your not using an official Ferrari diagnostic tool and some are incorrect.

    P1104 & P0102 : Air Flow Meter faults

    -----[ LH Bank 1 ]----- -----[ RH Bank 2 ]-----
    P1106 P1104 P1100 P1101 P0103 P0102 P0100 P0101 : Hot-Film Air Flow Meter
    P1106 P1104 P1100 P1101 P0103
    P0102 P0100 P0101 : Hot-Film Air Flow Meter

    Before talking about misfires, lets start with some basic information to help understanding;

    Cylinder Ignition order: (1-8)-(3-6)-(4-5)-(2-7)

    Layout of pistons (sorry for bad drawing, lol )
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    P0305 / P0306 / P0307 / P0308 (and multiple misfires = P0300) :

    P0300 Misfire, Sum Error (Multiple)

    P0301 Dropout Cylinder 1
    P0308 Dropout Cylinder 8
    P0303 Dropout Cylinder 3
    P0306 Dropout Cylinder 6
    P0304 Dropout Cylinder 4
    P0305 Dropout Cylinder 5
    P0302 Dropout Cylinder 2
    P0307 Dropout Cylinder 7

    From this information its clear to see that ALL misfires are happening on the LH Bank, no misfires on the RH Bank. And you mis-translation of the Powertrain fault diagnostic trouble codes for the HFM didn't help here because fuel adaption is incorrect if the AFM is bad (which could indeed cause misfires of this kind, e.g. the engine ecu tries to lean out the mixture because it thinks there is more air than there really is by looking at the misleading signal from the bad AFM).

    -----[ LH Bank 1 ]----- -----[ RH Bank 2 ]-----
    P1198 P1198 P1198 P1198 P1135 P1135 P1135 P1135 LSU - Primary Lambda Probe Heating ( Before Catalyst )


    Now things are becoming even clearer!

    Your primary o2 sensor on the LH bank also has a failed heater element so the O2 Sensor must be replaced. Without a working heater it cannot maintain the correct operating temperature via pulsing the heater on/off (called pulse wave modulation or duty cycle) so BOTH the sensing of the fuel coming OUT of the engine and the AIR coming IN are invalid on the LHS bank! This would 100% cause misfires.

    -----[ LH Bank 1 ]----- -----[ RH Bank 2 ]-----
    P1454 P1454 P1454 P1454 P1446 P1446 P1446 P1446 Catalyst Protection Active
    P1449 P1449 P1449 P1449 P1445 P1445 P1445 P1445 Cat Temperature

    Either your cat is glowing RED on the RHS bank and the system is actually working as designed (!) which is quite rare or you have a pending fault due to failed cat ecu or thermistor. In this case because of the AFM and O2 sensor issues I think indeed your cat must be glowing red hot and the temperature monitoring has kicked in.

    Solution:
    Replace both bank Primary O2 Sensor (2 of), Mass Air Flow Meters (2 of) and ideally all your coils (8 of) and plugs (8 of). Again as I've explained many times before use Bosch part numbers, not Ferrari ones as they are a fraction of the price.

    Also I would ideally get your firmware verified too, again to see if its the one for your vehicle. I always verify now as an additional check to see if your car has been (badly) tuned before and crossed flashed with the incorrect firmware for your actual Model Year.

    If you have NO history of replacing the coils, plugs, afm's and primary o2's in the past 6 years I would always recommend replacing them all. I replace mine every 5-6 years for trouble free motoring.
     
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  7. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    Trev, so you're saying some/all 360's go against the traditional Ferrari philosophy of bank 1 = right bank = 1~4 and bank 2 = left bank = 5~8???

    The MAF on the left hand side of the engine is wired up to RH ECU. Do the codes show the ECU that the MAF is attached to or do they show the side of the engine they are on?
     
  8. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    #8 Qavion, May 11, 2023
    Last edited: May 11, 2023
    Or there could possibly be a wiring issue.
    Adam, there will be a violet wire going to the O2 sensor connectors on the LH bank. This is the heater power wire, in this case, supplied with power from the LH Motronic Master Relay (behind the driver's seat).

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    The Master Relay feeds a blue fuse (as shown) and a violet wire coming from that fuse carries power to a blue plug near the driver's door and then to the O2 sensor. It's possible that when you were moving that green/brown wire, you were disturbing the wiring coming from that fuseblock. Coincidentally, that violet wire also powers the MAF associated with the left bank ECU.

    If you see a violet wire coming from that fuse/relay block, give it a shake to see if your engine plays up.

    Maybe you could remove the cloth tape from the wire bundle and try to separate/isolate the wires a bit better.
     
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  9. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    Oct 29, 2005
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    Good catch , I labelled the bank numbers the wrong way around during my cut and paste. The master RHS , and slave LHS.

    The conclusion is the same though, he needs new MAFs, O2 sensors to resolve the faults which were incorrectly defined by his scan tool (probably a non Ferrari generic one). I'd also strongly urge coils and plugs too. If it's been driven around for any length of time like this with cats glowing red it may have also damaged the cat cores too.

    Trev

    Sent from my CPH2145 using Tapatalk
     
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  10. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    Thanks, Trev. Speaking of master and slave (but slightly off topic)... The books say that timing is set, based on cylinder #1. Does the master ECU send a timing signal to the slave ECU on the CAN Bus (or other wires) or does the slave simply use its own cam and crank sensors. This question was raised on the 550 forum.
     
  11. Josephjürgen

    Josephjürgen Rookie

    May 11, 2023
    7
    Germany
    Full Name:
    Juergen S.
    Hi Trev, I’m new here, coming from Germany, happily found this chat!
    I m having serious problem with my F 430 !
    The car does not always open pushing the ky, sometimes I have to open it with the key, but mostly locks faster than I can push to open the door!
    If I succeed to get in, I have to put key very fast into ignition, before Sirene starts, than I can start engine, but after short drive, Sirene starts and than the engine dies and is not possible to start again.
    Immobilizer does not allow to drive longer than ca 100 m than Sirene starts and once you stop the car, engine stops and will not start again!
    Any help appreciated much !
    Thanks in advance !
    Kind Regards from Germany
    Juergen
     
  12. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    Perhaps you would like to start a new message thread, Juergen. The nature of your problem sounds quite different to the topic (misfire).
     
  13. Josephjürgen

    Josephjürgen Rookie

    May 11, 2023
    7
    Germany
    Full Name:
    Juergen S.
    Hi, thanks for your advice, I thought
    @360trev
    could hopefully help me, when reading this, but you are correct, as I have a problem with immobilizer!
     
  14. achova

    achova Rookie

    Apr 12, 2017
    4
    Mercer Island, WA
    Full Name:
    Adam Chovanak
    All - thank you so much for the thorough and thoughtful replies. this is a 2001 gated Row (Japan) example.

    @Qavion - I had previously been focusing on the LH Bank relay and all connections on these fuse & relay panels after-which my misfires were reduced. Since starting this thread, all connections are cleaned again and that relay in particular is new. I've inspected the plastic blocks for fuses & relays and while there is some oxidation I used Deoxit and Isopropyl to go after it again - no sign of melting and all female connections seem to be at the correct placement (not pushed in).

    I've taken the advise here from @Qavion & @360trev and ordered the following. I'll be out for a few weeks but will report back early June.
    • 8 x Bosch coil-packs 0221504015
    • 8 x NGK 5851 / PMR8A
    • 2 x MAF Bosch 0280218012
    • 2 x Bosch O2 sensor 17001
     
  15. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    Thanks. That explains the unused/loose plug in your first post.

    Can you monitor the voltage with a voltmeter at the blue plug (pin 13/violet wire) near the driver's door whilst shaking the wiring harnesses in the relay area with the ignition on? i.e. disconnect the plug. Put your meter's black probe on an good chassis earth.

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    (looking at contacts, not wires)
     
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  16. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    ooops... A slight flaw in that idea.... I just realised that the Master Motronic relay won't energise with that 10H plug disconnected, so no power will flow through the violet wire.

    Currently looking for a workaround...
     
  17. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    A possible workaround would be to short pin 3 to ground during your shake tests. This should energise your LH Master Motronic relay (with the ignition on).

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    The wiring for pin 3 could also cause issues with power to your engine management components.

    I just realised I omitted that pin 3 wiring in my master wiring diagrams. Now corrected:

    Early coupe: https://www.dropbox.com/t/FLfhK4WjrZICljMy

    Later spider: https://www.dropbox.com/t/LpeaExC820slcf8n

    See pin 31 of the LH Motronic ECU (in the bottom left hand corner of both diagrams)
     
  18. Nobbi

    Nobbi Rookie

    Apr 26, 2005
    9
    Center of Germany
    Hello
    My name is Norbert and I'm working on a 360Modena with P1104 as well. Fortunately without any other DTC's stored but it misfires left and right when its warm. In cold condition it runs smooth. P1104 comes when I drive for a while. I can delete the fault but its still pending. Its a German car with 18000km on it. I have checked the Left Mas Airflow Meter which was wet. So I decide to replace it but the problem still exists.
    Does anybody have the error setting conditions of P1104? Which conditions must be fulfilled that the ECU set P1104? Is there any trouble shooting plan available?
    I have checked the plugs which shows a lean mixture color on cylinder 1, 2, 5 & 8, those spark plugs are nearly white!
    My next idea is to control the fuel pressure.
    The car parks more than it runs, so it's probably a problem with the injection valves of cyl 1, 2, 5 & 8? Does anyone have any experience with this?
    I don't understand why there is no P030x... etc set in the ECU. Or are the P030x - fault setting conditions so generous that the ECU tolerates this?
    But if its an injector problem why is P1104 set?

    Any idea is welcome.
    Regard
    Norbert
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  19. EastMemphis

    EastMemphis Formula 3
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    How new are the Mass Air Flow sensors (MAF)? They can cause misfires. I'd check to see if there's oil contamination from overfilling the oil. It can come out of the breather and end up fouling the MAF. They're relatively cheap and easy to replace. If they are original, it's time to swap them for new units.
     
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  20. Nobbi

    Nobbi Rookie

    Apr 26, 2005
    9
    Center of Germany
    The left MAF is already new, OE from BOSCH.
     
  21. EastMemphis

    EastMemphis Formula 3
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    When a Bosch item comes as a pair (MAF's, throttle bodies), they have to be replaced as a pair. I suggest replacing the other one too.
     
  22. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    P1104
    Low Input (min)
    1) Check the wiring
    2) Check Air mass flow between left and right.

    Difference not more than 5kg/h
    3) in idle, hot condition, air mass flow
    has to be 18-25


    I wonder if the ECUs actually compare the L/R flow values and generate a P1104 code if there is a 5Kg/hr difference?
     
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  23. Nobbi

    Nobbi Rookie

    Apr 26, 2005
    9
    Center of Germany
    Hi. Now I have ordered another new MAF and check the situation again. After this I try to exchange both MAFs each other and see if the DTC changes as well
     
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  24. Nobbi

    Nobbi Rookie

    Apr 26, 2005
    9
    Center of Germany
    Dear all, last weekend I have replaced the second MAF-sensor, checked the fuel pressure (3,6bar on both sides) but there is still a rough idle and misfiring.
    I've checked the intake area for leaks without finding anything. The rubbers are ok.
    Has anyone had problems with the injection nozzles? Could they be partially clogged? But shouldn't P030x be set in the ECU?
    Which OBD scanner are you using where you can analyze the datalist? Any idea is appreciated.
     
  25. 360+Volt=Prius

    360+Volt=Prius Formula 3
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    Nobbi, I’m no pro but here is my opinion anyway.

    I use 2 OBD readers, smartphone app EOBD-FACILE with Wi-Fi obd connector, i also have a good quality foxwell scanner. Both give live data.

    There is a lean condition, and since you have replaced the MAFS you have eliminated that. Seems to me you have an unmetered intake air I.e. leak (after the MAF). I’d be carefully looking for leaks and this may be an intake manifold gasket leak- not uncommon.

    Replace the pre cat O2 sensors

    It looks like there are 3 lean plugs on each bank.

    Next I would send out the injectors. Possible there is an single injector on each bank running rich( debris) and causing each bank to compensate by running lean.

    What does the live data look like at the precat O2 sensors (both banks O2 sensor 1)

    -ray
     

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