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Ferrari Classiche

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by Rossocorsa1, Dec 2, 2018.

  1. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

    May 14, 2017
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    Ferrari Classiche remains a topic of great interest for me as I continue to learn the positives and negatives of both their restoration and certification standards. While there are certainly a very vocal few on here that are vehemently opposed to Classiche (I hope they contribute to this thread in a constructive and polite manner), I remain convinced that Classiche can continue to evolve into a real gem for both Ferrari and its passionate fans, particularly those in the vintage realm.

    I was hoping to engage with those “in the know” regarding this amazing car:

    https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/ca18/auction/lots/r0017-1956-ferrari-290-mm-by-scaglietti

    I’m not suggesting I know anything more than what is described in the RM Sotheby’s posting, but it seems to be a real achievement for Classiche. What are your thoughts? Please don’t bash it just because you hate Classiche. If it’s a great and detailed restoration, please admit it and chime in. If not, why do you think so?
     
  2. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

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    I stated this earlier today in a mother thread - one issue I do have with Classiche (restorations and certifications) is related to some, not all, vintage cars, particularly those with racing heritage. I think Classiche would be very well served by developing an outside advisory council of historians, enthusiasts, owners and restorers of those cars who can impart a significant amount of knowledge on their provenance, many of whom know much more about these cars than the factory does. I also think this would go a long way to establishing a greater amount of credibility with the vintage class given that a portion of them are very suspect about Classiche.
     
  3. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Never going to happen. Ferrari doesn't give a damn about its heritage. It's all about the money, period.
     
  4. Dave rocks

    Dave rocks F1 World Champ
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    Well, Ferrari is a business. Now a public traded business. I agree to an extent but not 100%. It's good business to care about heritage.
     
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  5. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

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    I agree, Dave. It’s one thing to have constructive criticism and thoughts about Classiche, but to simply attack and dismiss it as nothing but a “money grab” says nothing. I guess great restoration shops in the US should just offer their services for free.

    Ferrari runs a great business that can always be improved. Classiche has enormous potential. If they didn’t see potential with the vintage market they certainly wouldn’t have created the division. They have demonstrated an intense dedication over the past few years to a renewed focus on heritage. The restored car referenced above is one of many examples. They have every right to make money on addressing this markets needs. Obviously there are many taking advantage of their services, some being the top collectors in the world. Certainly, there is plenty room for improvement.
     
  6. Dave rocks

    Dave rocks F1 World Champ
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    I'm intrigued by the process and interested to learn more, Jeff. I'm rather turned off by the annual inspection yet I do understand the spirit.
     
  7. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

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    I understand. As one who has a certified car and another application in, I can’t pretend that the annual verification isn’t inconvenient, but it really isn’t that big of a deal. As I’ve been told, it’s a quick verification of numbers and major components. I believe in the program so I’m happy to do my part to maintain its integrity. While I’ve heard stories about people switching out pieces for certification only to switch them back to modifications, I can personally say that I’ve never seen this. As for the need for continual verification, I completely understand the need for it. Certification can’t exist in perpetuity or it literally has no significance.
     
  8. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

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  9. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Brian Crall
  10. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Three Time F1 World Champ
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    You asked for an opinion, and you got it. I've been around Ferrari too long I guess. Not only is it about the money, but I can't see Ferrari ever sharing that money with anybody else. If an outside expert wants to donate their expertise for free, Ferrari might take it. But I can't see them paying anyone, which is an issue because there is more expertise about the early cars outside of Ferrari than in house.
     
  11. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

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    Thanks, Brian. Good speaking with and thanks for the insight.
     
  12. BarryK

    BarryK Formula Junior

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    Well said. It's a pretty straightforward money grab, but without in-house expertise to even match the outside, they are always going to be grasping at the straws.
     
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  13. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Three Time F1 World Champ
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    To give a more complete answer, for decades, the only people keeping track of Ferrari's "heritage" were people like Gerald Rouse and Marcel Massini. Ferrari didn't care. Frankly, Ferrari struggled financially during the early days and the focus was on keeping the doors open. A 250 GTO being worth a jillion dollars didn't put any money into Ferrari's bank account. As a result, there was a small group of private individuals who were more passionate about Ferrari's history than the company itself.

    The issue was compounded by poor record keeping, and the reality that"hand built" cars had a lot of variability. In a past life, I used to restore old British motorcycles. It didn't take long to realize that wiring diagrams and colors were a joke. Timmy was a good lad, but sometimes he couldn't see to well after a rough weekend, so if he grabbed a green wire instead of a black one, who cared?

    Fast forward to roughly 15 years ago when Ferrari started Classiche and it became painfully obvious Ferrari was in it for the money. Instead of saying, like Porsche, such and such car had this and that when it left the factory, Ferrari became the self-appointed final authority, even though in many cases, it knew less about a car than outside enthusiasts. There are more than one or two stories told around the campfire about Ferrari's arrogance, which left a bitter taste. Now that Ferrari is charging an arm and a leg to certify Fiat-era and beyond cars, about which there is a lot less uncertainty, it makes some of us cynical. That said, it's your money. Do with it as you wish. But, if you get some pushback from some here, maybe this note will help you understand why.
     
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  14. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

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    That’s a real shame that Ferrari doesn’t open themselves up to collaborative input from outside experts. Theoretically it’s such a cool concept to have a vintage car restored at the factory. It’s peculiar that they don’t pursue the very best restoration options possible.

    As for the certification side of things, I recognize that it’s a much easier proposition on later model cars than the vintage class. I still personally enjoy that aspect of Classiche with my cars.
     
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  15. Bryanp

    Bryanp F1 Rookie
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    You asked about the quality of Classiche restorations. I had to chuckle this past August when I saw in the Classiche display area at Pebble a car that Classiche had restored a few years earlier. The car went from Classiche to a show where judges - actual historians who knew how Ferraris were built 60 years ago - operating under IAC/PFA rules, noted its many inaccuracies. The car spent the next year+ at one of the top five Ferrari resto shops in the US getting corrected. I wondered if the Classiche folks had any idea it had been corrected as it sat there on their chunk of lawn . . .
     
  16. sixcarbs

    sixcarbs F1 Veteran
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    Exactly. The Italians will never have the eye and passion for detail that the American restoration shops do.

    Would be interesting to know the backgrounds of the people actually doing the restoration work at Classiche. Probably just pulled off the line at Maranello and told to "Fix this."
     
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  17. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

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  18. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

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    A participant on a different thread recently posted this - the Classiche certification criteria. Anyone who has interest in Classiche certification may find this interesting
     

    Attached Files:

  19. Admiral Goodwrench

    Admiral Goodwrench Formula Junior

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    It would probably have to await an actual Concours judged by IAC/PFA rules to see what, if anything, needs correction. That is unless the new owner takes it to one of the top US restorers first.
     
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  20. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

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    Thanks, Admiral.
     
  21. JackCongo

    JackCongo Formula Junior
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    Thanks for sharing this document !
     
  22. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    So what is wrong with the Classiche restoration of 0628? IF there are incorrect details Classiche would be responsible for correcting them.
     
  23. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

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    That’s what I’m trying to find out. It seems that some make an assumption that if it was a Classiche restoration than it must be wrong. I’m far from an expert so I certainly can’t tell if it was done correctly or not. I’m guessing, in time, we’ll learn more after very knowledgeable people have had time to inspect the car.
     
  24. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
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    Could one not go after Ferrari legally for misrepresentation? Or would the courts side with the company that actually built the thing..
     
  25. Bryanp

    Bryanp F1 Rookie
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    #25 Bryanp, Dec 13, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2018
    No one said there is anything wrong w/ 0628 - I believe it was posed as a hypothetical by Rossacorsa1. What I think is amusing is the notion that Classiche would ever believe or admit to having done anything wrong. They appear to see themselves as the arbiter of what is correct, even when there is historical evidence to the contrary.
     
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