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Ferrari of San Antonio sold me a damaged CPO car, lied to me, refuses to make it right.

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by dgoldenz94, Sep 16, 2020.

  1. Petespokerplanet

    Apr 15, 2019
    5
    DFW, TEXAS
    Full Name:
    Peter N
    #151 Petespokerplanet, Sep 18, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2020
    YOUR INTENTION IS WELL-MEANINGED, BUT YOUR JUSTIFICATIONS AND "LEGAL" ANALYSIS ARE WAY OFF THE MARK.

    My responses to his statements were added to the above quote.

    Man, your conclusions, while well intentioned, are absolutely ungrounded. I tried to briefly explain why you were legally WRONG, but seems like that doesn't matter to you. And as clearly is the case here, your mind is made up, even though you have based your conclusions using an elementary understanding of the law. I can assure you that I am an expert in this field, having successfully won against some of the biggest manufacturers of vehicles, advised and represented dozens of auto dealerships, and represent dozens more clients that were misled by dealerships. But, since you think you have a better grasp of the law than me with your internet law license, feel free to keep giving incorrect legal advice to people. (For that, you can get in trouble). Have a good weekend, and I hope everyone that can gets to enjoy a drive in their Ferrari.

    Again, @dgoldenz94 - The reason I address this is because it seems like so many people are willing to give this Ferrari dealership a pass by just saying car dealerships all "suck". We should not discourage people to share their experiences (and evidence) by telling them they should keep quiet for fear of ungrounded legal action. Have a good weekend, and I hope you find your Ferrari.
     
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  3. Nathan360

    Nathan360 Karting

    Apr 17, 2010
    137
    Manchester / England
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    Nathan
    Did the car have obvious problems - seemingly undeniable, though some people seem to think it was OK I find that fatuous.

    Did the dealership know this and not disclose it - yep. On top of this it seems not to be an accidental omission but an active behaviour.

    That’s good to know imo, not only to help future buyers learn from one mans experience, but that the snake gets the name of its actions.

    Cosmetics we can see. Mechanicals we cant. We are relying on and trusting these people to one extent or another. As the dealer was the expert and higher power in the transaction dynamic they have (imo) elevated responsibility.

    The buyer living in a world where he trusts people more than others would does not supervene this. I was once like this and wish we lived in a world where in still was. Perhaps if we push back on bad behaviour there is a hope of improvement?

    Reminds me of this time I was walking in the park late one night.
    Next thing I know I woke up in hospital after surgery from the stabbing. All OK nice flowers and stuff. Then there was this guy yelling at me that only a complete fool would walk in the park after bedtime. And if I did it again he’d stab me himself!
     
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  4. vraa

    vraa Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Oct 31, 2003
    1,935
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    Mr. A
    Honestly the first red flag was the sales guy using an android phone

    Android sucks. I'm sorry if you don't have the blue bubble you might as well be putting wax seals on your letters.
     
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  5. m5shiv

    m5shiv Formula 3
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    Feb 25, 2013
    1,259
    SF Bay Area
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    Shiv
    Sorry, this is the dumbest thing I've ever read on Fchat.
     
  6. Innovativethinker

    Innovativethinker F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Aug 8, 2009
    5,501
    Bear Creek, Ca.
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    Mark Jones
    Truth is usually a good defense, based upon what I know of the CPO checklist and the photos presented, the facts favor the OP.

    I doubt the dealer would pursue ligation, and my reasoning is I doubt this is a one-off problem. Any litigator would investigate prior problems and the dealer may very well have to deal with a possible class action, as there would probably be a list of unsatisfied purchasers should ads appear asking for them to come forward.

    IMHO the best thing the dealer could do is to make this quickly go away, the worst thing would be to litigate and then really give the OP a platform that is newsworthy (truly a low bar these days.)

    I appreciate when posts like this (the OP) appear, it warns the community of issues and reminds us not to be a trustful as we would like to be.

    My $.02

    -mark
     
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  8. vraa

    vraa Formula 3
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    Oct 31, 2003
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    Mr. A
    Yeah especially if you're on the side of dishonest sales people.....

    iMessage is far superior for sending photos, messages, PDFs, documents, and videos and it ensures delivery and you can get read receipts.

    Ferrari sales person still using android? lol, google is trash, android is trash, and green bubbles are for plebs
     
  9. papou

    papou Formula 3
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    May 18, 2012
    1,088
    plantation Fla
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    daniel ross
    The reason for many years Women wouldn’t report abuse is the negative response they would receive, Give the OP applause for bringing this to the
    Ferrari community on Fchat.
     
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  10. drdfog

    drdfog Rookie

    Jun 21, 2014
    17
    North Fort Worth
    Full Name:
    Chuck Lanham
    So sorry to hear about your experience. I just purchased my very first Ferrari 2 weeks ago. I purchased from Craig Becker of Ferrari of Houston. He sold me a 488 GTB that was a CPO. He told me the car was absolutely perfect. Upon my personal inspection of the car, I concluded he was correct. Really great guy. Good thing is that some of your greatest joys are in the 'hunt for the next toy and San Antonio has allowed that joy to continue. Best of luck.

    Sent from my SM-N976V using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
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  11. IloveGT

    IloveGT Formula 3

    Oct 17, 2015
    1,553
    #159 IloveGT, Sep 18, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2020
    First, you can relax and I am sure the community appreciate your legal expertise here. I still think you are missing my point of message here. If you think ranting here on internet, especially now the op admits that the GM never promised that he would give the transportation fees back, and it was the op who wanted it back, and now he is publically calling the GM a liar when there was no mutual agreement that the transportation fees would be refunded, and this would not invite unnecessary legal trouble, then I am sorry I think you are really thinking as an attorney, i.e, let's get to the court and let the truth and justice prevail. No. The best advice one can give here is not about whether he has justification for his ranting here on internet, but about whether or not he wants to explain that to the judge or jury in person. In your experience, how much do you think an attorney would charge up front if the op were to retain one so in order to get the case dismissed?

    Telling the op to stop crying for $1500 and stop using potential ligitious word lest a unnecessary legal troubles requires common sense.

    In this Fchat forum, do you honestly think if I find a 458 SA in my perfect spec and reasonable price, my decision to fly to TX and sealing the deal would be different because of the presence of this thread? Most Ferrari collectors buying the cars would care less about this thread because the story is only one sided to begin with. Especially he already implied that if the dealer were to give back the $1500, he would not have posted this thread. So I find it hard to believe the incentive for his ranting is altruistic.

    Why don't you do pro bono for the op to get his $1500 back? I am not saying this to spike you, but if you have that much sympathy and empathy for the op, you should consider helping him more, instead of arguing with me who is not an attorney but with only common sense.
     
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  13. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Four Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 28, 2003
    47,201
    Texas!
    Can I ask why you are motivated to defend the dealer in this case? I’m not talking about legal issues. I’m talking integrity. To sell a car without mentioning obvious flaws is not a good business practice. Should the buyer had been more wary? Perhaps. Should an authorized Ferrari dealership been more transparent? Absolutely.



    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     
  14. Ron328

    Ron328 F1 Rookie
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    Mar 10, 2003
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    Willamette Valley, Oregon
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    Ron
    #161 Ron328, Sep 18, 2020
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 21, 2020
    That is the problem! A "Ferrari Buying Experience" shouldn't be this way...at all!
     
  15. IloveGT

    IloveGT Formula 3

    Oct 17, 2015
    1,553
    The key word here is the word should. Yes, of course, the dealer should have been more transparent with the condition of the car before sale. Based on the description of the OP, misrepresentation by the dealer is obvious if the op has specifically asked for the paint and interior leather and have received a different answer. Cpo process should mean something, many people said, but those who have purchased enough cars might say otherwise, so that is not a surprise. How high of the standard a Ferrari dealership should be held to? I don't know. To me, it's just a car dealership filled with car salesman. I think we are giving the brand way too many expectation because of the money we paid. To the dealership, we are just numbers and quotas. I don't place loyalty to any brand or dealership because I learned that it never was meant to be reciprocated anyway to begin with. So I was not a bit surprised by the things were developing between the dealer and the buyer. All in all, I am not giving anyone a pass here, neither the op or the dealer. We have 7 billions people, how many times do we have to use the word "should". That is why we have laws. If every thing operate based on the word "should" then that is a perfect world, but we don't have one. never was and never will.

    The situation will be very different if the OP asked for specific questions and the answer given were completely opposite. It appears that the root of argument here is the CPO process. But one thing I can say for sure, the op purchased the car unseen and that is on him. The dealer didn't forbid him to visit the dealership. Aren't we all surprised that the dealer repurchased the car back just like that? The dealer could have simply told the op to pound sand unless a real lawsuit is filed. So at the end of the day, why should I have sympathy for somebody who just whined about not able having cake and eat it too?

    Now we are simply dealing with $1500 for god sake. If this situation is making you feel like your own principle is violated because you find the situation is so vile, then by all means write to the dealership and express your dismay.
     
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  16. Lou D

    Lou D Rookie
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    May 16, 2020
    32
    Connecticut
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    Lou Dell
    This dealer gives ALL dealers a black eye which is unfortunate. I purchased a 2015 California T sight unseen May 2020 and had it shipped across country from California to Connecticut.
    The condition of the car was documented by a detailed video and was actually better than described when it arrived.
    I would trust my salesman Sasha Kiesbuey at Westlake Ferrari in a heartbeat and I am sorry that this Texas dealer did not live up to the honest standards expected by a Ferrari buyer.
     
  17. papou

    papou Formula 3
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    May 18, 2012
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    plantation Fla
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    daniel ross
    Agree 100%, When Bud Root, John Levy, or Hank Carpenter put there names to a car I would buy sight unseen.
     
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  18. dgoldenz94

    dgoldenz94 Karting

    Apr 13, 2020
    183
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    David Gold
  19. dgoldenz94

    dgoldenz94 Karting

    Apr 13, 2020
    183
    Full Name:
    David Gold
    This is incredibly funny to me because I have this conversation with my friends all the time that you can't trust people with green text (Android users).
     
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  20. Lou D

    Lou D Rookie
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    May 16, 2020
    32
    Connecticut
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    Lou Dell
    They would never put me on that jury because I would close that Ferrari dealer in San Antonio.....
     
  21. Nospinzone

    Nospinzone F1 Veteran

    Jul 1, 2013
    5,693
    Weston, MA
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    Paul
    Agreed. We would have heard none of this had the OP received the $1500 he wanted, And I'd still buy a car from FSA if they had a car I wanted at the price I wanted. At least I know that if I am not satisfied they will buy the car back. How many dealers will do that?

    In the 7 years I've been on this forum I've heard complaints about multiple Ferrari dealers and have heard many more from Ferrari owners. So now I'm supposed to stay away from all those dealers? I don't think so. However I won't buy a car from any dealer sight unseen or without a PPI.
     
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  22. Innovativethinker

    Innovativethinker F1 Veteran
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    Aug 8, 2009
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    Mark Jones
    perhaps a jury, when comparing the photos against the published CPO qualifications, may well come up with a new word : Fraud, which in my opinion is what happened here.

    And that then leads to punitive damages and attorneys fees to the prevailing party.

    I doubt that Ferrari would agree in public that the car in question qualifies as a CPO, and I am quite sure there would be many an expert that would testify against the dealership.

    This isn’t about “should”, it is about fraud.

    The rest of the transaction is irrelevant.
     
  23. 5859

    5859 Rookie

    Apr 5, 2020
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    Hess
    bwahahahaha 100
     
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  24. IloveGT

    IloveGT Formula 3

    Oct 17, 2015
    1,553
    #171 IloveGT, Sep 18, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2020
    I disagree. I have seen the pictures posted by the OP and the dealership ad. It's the same picture of the interior and exterior, except that the op zoomed in a couple. When was the last time you saw a car ad intentionally showing the scratches of front bumper bottom. If you don't ask you don't get to see it, in the situation when you are not seeing the car in person. However having said that, of course I think this are many rooms of improvement with the dealer, based on the op description. In the perfect world, they should have disclosed these damages to the buyer without the buyer asking. But how many of you disclosed information during a life insurance purchase when there was no questions being asked about it to begin with?

    if the life insurance don't ask you specifically if you have x disease, you don't volunteer to say you have x disease. what will you be your defense? They didn't ask. So are you being dishonest and fraudulent?

    Again if the op asked for the picture of the bottom of the from bumper and was shown a completely different bottom, that is a slam dunk fraud. But today it's different. The op believed the cpo process to mean something because it's a ferrari and not honda. Well how can you say this is not about the word "should" at all?

    all in all, what we discussed was not even they op's main gripe. it seems it's about the $1500. do you think the dealership should have given him the $1500 back after the car was taken back on the dealers dime when there was no mutual agreement of refunding the $1500 to begin with?

    I don't know the answer to it actually because the op did get to enjoy the car for a while. even in the lemon lawsuit, the plaintiff still have to pay for the mileage usage per miles after the car was repurchased.
     
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  25. 5859

    5859 Rookie

    Apr 5, 2020
    38
    Full Name:
    Hess
    You're not catching me missing work, fun or life to go buy a used car, specially if its pre owned certified by the FERRARI DEALER. Plain and simple theyre crooks for not disclosing the damage and flaws. IF those were disclosed and buyer still proceeded forward, and THEN wrote about it, yes his fault. This is clearly a case of shady used car salesmen.
    Glad you got your money back OP and middle finger to the SA dealership
     
  26. dgoldenz94

    dgoldenz94 Karting

    Apr 13, 2020
    183
    Full Name:
    David Gold
    There were no pictures of the car posted online when I called them about it. The pictures you see in the current ad were taken after they got the car back. The only photos sent to me are what was posted in my original thread about buying the car which is in the FF forum.

    All of the pictures of the interior are mine taken in my garage.

    By the way, you are absolutely wrong about your life insurance comparison too.
     
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  27. IloveGT

    IloveGT Formula 3

    Oct 17, 2015
    1,553
    Now i am genuinely confused. Did you even see any picture of the car before you purchased the car. The dealership must have posted an ad online so that you saw it and liked it to begin with, right?
     
  28. dgoldenz94

    dgoldenz94 Karting

    Apr 13, 2020
    183
    Full Name:
    David Gold
    Also, here is an article you may find interesting. This guy was originally awarded a few thousand bucks in actual damages and $5.8 million in punitive damages. A judge lowered that to "only" $500k.

    https://www.thedrive.com/news/26442/ferrari-f430-owner-who-sued-arkansas-dealership-wont-get-millions-after-all

    "Back in September, a jury awarded punitive damages of $5.8 million against Mercedes-Benz of Northwest Arkansas after it had sold a used Ferrari F430 with undisclosed and potentially dangerous defects. Now, a judge is lowering that figure to $500,000.

    From an Automotive News report, the decision came from Judge P.K. Holmes after the dealership's parent company, Silverstar Automotive Group, appealed the initial ruling, arguing that it constituted cruel, unusual, excessive, and unlawful punishment. While Silverstar aimed to get the ruling down to just $27,340, Judge Holmes met them somewhere in the middle landing on half a million.

    The decision didn't come without a written lashing from Holmes. "Making an affirmative misrepresentation about a car's condition, especially when the condition gives rise to safety concerns, is often considered one of the more reprehensible acts of business fraud," he wrote in his ruling.
    "
     
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