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Ferrari P5 prototype: is there a SN for the P4 chassis?

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by bitzman, Aug 29, 2015.

  1. bitzman

    bitzman Formula 3

    Feb 15, 2008
    2,378
    This has to be one of the ugliest Pininfarina prototypes with all those strakes horizontally across the rear. I was just reading about it and it says it has a P4 chassis. I noticed on this page

    1968 Ferrari 250 P5 (Pininfarina) - Studios

    it seems to have a full race engine, so I don't think it's more than just bare chassis tubing from a P4, more like a complete P4. Now that P3/4s are worth, oh, $10 million or more, isn't it about time someone bought this and rebodied it as a P3/4? Does anyone know the chassis number and if it has racing provenance? Does it still exist? I haven't seen pictures of Pininfarina displaying it in recent years...
     
  2. Sire Bruno de Losckley

    Aug 1, 2006
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    I think it was 0862
     
  3. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3
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    Not to be rude but try either Mr. Google, Jim G's #0846 newsletter or many other forums for the answer to your question.....
     
  4. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #5 Napolis, Aug 30, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2015
  5. bitzman

    bitzman Formula 3

    Feb 15, 2008
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    Maybe the factory let the mis-representtion go on because it sounded more exciting to say it was a Dino> Was the engine on the display car a V6 or V12? Here's what barchettacc.com says; (partial listing)

    0862 67

    212 E Montagna


    Date Result Event Driver # Reference
    67 - re-numbered from 020 (Dino 206 S chassis)
    67/nov - tested at Modena by Chris Amon
    68 - chassis used for PF 250 P5 show car
    68/mar/13 - Geneva Salon show car
    69 - rebodied & modified to 212 E Montagna specs
    69 - Scuderia Ferrari C2 p28 Tanner p545 TCF p317
    69/mar/30 1st Ampus hillclimb (F) Peter Schetty #131 FCR V2 p212 #1 #88 #118
    69/may/11 1st Volterra hillclimb Peter Schetty #532
    69/may/25 1st Montseny hillclimb (E) Peter Schetty #104
    69/jun/08 1st OA Alpen-Bergpreis Rossfeld Peter Schetty #1 AMS 1969 H.13 p90
    69/jun/22 1st Mont Ventoux hillclimb Peter Schetty #55 C97 p15
    69/jul/13 1st OA Trento-Bondone hillclimb Peter Schetty #88
    69/jul/27 1st OA Freiburg-Schauinsland hillclimb Peter Schetty #197 AMS 1969 H.17 p68
    69/aug/03 1st Cesana-Sestriere hillclimb Peter Schetty #380 C185 p10
    69/aug/31 1st Ollon-Villars hillclimb Peter Schetty #181 C92 p41 C6/88 p35

    My question is: what civilian bought it and bought a used Dino 206 body to put back on it. I wonder if it was a bargain price.
     
  6. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

    Nov 19, 2008
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    #7 miurasv, Sep 1, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 1, 2015
    So what is the chassis number that P5 was built on? It's still on the RM website from the 212 E Montagna 2006 auction as being 0862.
     
  7. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #8 Napolis, Sep 1, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2015
    Huet and RM have been proven wrong and Ludvigson and Goodfellow have been proven correct as per PF's archives and period photos both in period and when they took P5's original chassis from their warehouse and restored P5 with it's original chassis, engine, gearbox etc. and fit it with a replica body before selling it on to Japan. This was also confirmed by RP's conversation with Andrea PF and the photos they have in their archives and those records and photos were shown to Ferrari by PF when P5 was at Ferrari Classiche several years ago afaik.

    My guess is 036 which was a spare 206S chassis as P5 followed Dino Competizione which was built on 034 and also stamped 10523 by PF.

    PF show cars often were built pn what were originally spare chassis. Modulo chassis originally was "512S N.27" which was a spare, beyond the 25 512S chassis required for homolagation. Ferrari did build 512S n.27 up and crash it as 0864 and then pass it on to PF. The original chassis plate 512S N.27 is still in it's original position and visible in the Modulo thread. It's engine is 0864's 612 Can Am Engine as is it's gearbox which is 612 Can Am not 512S.
     
  8. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    Mar 2, 2005
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    The recreated P5 is no longer in Japan.
    It belongs to a very private collector in Switzerland since a few years.

    Marcel Massini
     
  9. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Did he get it to a running state?

    At one point I think at the behest of the Japanese owner Ferrari was considering doing that. PF was contacted about the body they did and I remember PF telling me that Ferrari was insisting that it be redone at great expense. It would be great to see it made running IMO but others may disagree and prefer it to remain as it is. If the present owner is interested in making it into a runner I have the parts/sources that can make that happen as we're doing with Modulo.

    Best
     
  10. NürScud

    NürScud F1 Veteran

    Nov 3, 2012
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    Always able to help.

    Keep the spirit Mr G!
     
  11. TheDevil

    TheDevil Karting

    Jul 14, 2014
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    I think that the following photos may help you to verify, with
    - http://goo.gl/LOJ3ld, how the car was presented at the 1968 Geneva Show car;
    - http://goo.gl/LRR8bs, the type of engine (1966 312/F1, as you can see better here through a B.Cahier's photo).

    The car was shown as FERRARI PROTOTYPE 250/P5 with a body "berlinette speciale" built by Carrozzeria Pininfarina (and no mention at all to DINO).
     
  12. bitzman

    bitzman Formula 3

    Feb 15, 2008
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    I don't have a big library so I relied on (horrors!) Wikipedia which said
    "The Ferrari 312 was the designation of the 3 litre V-12 (hence 312) Formula One cars raced by the Italian team from 1966 to 1969. Designed under the leadership of Mauro Forghieri, there were two distinct variations using this designation, the 1966 version and the completely different 1967-69 version. The '66 cars carried on the chassis numbering sequence from the previous year's 1.5 litre cars, while the '67 cars began a new sequence at "0001". To avoid confusion, the cars are commonly referred to as 312/66, 312/67 etc."

    Of course Ferrari can put any engine in any chassis they want as a show car but I suppose if this is restored, it will have to be back to a V6. I don't think anyone will lament this show car body being taken off, it has to be one of the few they regretted doing. Does the car belong to Ferrari or Pininfarina at present?
     
  13. Jakuzzi

    Jakuzzi Formula 3

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    I find it very beautiful my good Sir. :)
     
  14. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    Before asking a question do you do any research at all? It seems you ignore all responses to your questions and fail to absorb the info contained therein, as demonstrated by your post above, so why ask in the first place?
     
  15. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    He doesn't.
    He does.
    True.
    Good question.

    As an aside P5 was a study for the post 67 rules which required a 3 liter engine in prototypes.
     
  16. yale

    yale Formula Junior

    May 2, 2004
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    What's even crazier then the way he posts is the fact he writes books and articles about these subjects. It gives a real perspective on the whole genre of automotive writings.
     
  17. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Very true. The Huet article is another example totally disproved by Pininfarina's period photographs. Buyer Beware.
     
  18. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    Ludvigsen and Goodfellow can't both be right as Ludvigsen states that the P5 chassis was Dino or Dino sized and Goodfellow says that Ramaciotti states the P5 chassis was/is a slightly twisted P2/3 which would explain why Ferrari may have left it at Pininfarina and not wanted it back. Reading all the articles I have more questions than answers. Perhaps Marcel Massini could offer some clarity as he knows the whereabouts of the "recreated P5" as he calls it. But does that mean he thinks it is a complete replica with a replica chassis?
     
  19. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #20 Napolis, Sep 8, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2015
    When did any Showcar Chassis ever go back to Ferrari? Why would one especially since these were used/damaged or no longer needed? From measurements Ludvigsen's "Dino sized" is correct. Ramaciotti's recollection of a damaged chassis possibly P 2/3 is also possibly correct as to damage but which P 2/3 chassis is missing? 0830 was badly fire damaged in a fatal accident and "scrapped". 0842 "cut in two by another fatal accident and scrapped" Either way PF/Ramaciotti definitely believe and period photos of the original P5 chassis and engine in the PF warehouse prior to "re?" P5 definitely support that P5 was never built as Huet said it was.
     
  20. bitzman

    bitzman Formula 3

    Feb 15, 2008
    2,378
    Sometimes the same site has contradictory info. I looked again on Barchettacc.com under a different title: this time P5. This is what they said and have at least six pictures in black and white as a 206 at various races.
    I guess when it's going to be a show car chassis there's no reason to necessarily make a car functional, I am surprised the V12 fit into the Dino chassis...


    none 68
    250 P5
    it was never intended for racing and most likely was never driven under own power
    V12 3litre, 48 valves
    iridesencent Italver white 2221F/red leather
    Date Result Event Driver # Reference
    68 - 330 P3 chassis 0846 used as basis for 250 P5 Prototype
    68/early - Geneva Show Car
    .. - Shiro Kosaka, J
    .. - displayed in Galleria Abarth, Yamanakako, J
     
  21. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
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    Just a question..where is the original? Was it indeed destroyed? All I have ever heard about was the replica..
     
  22. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    So everybody reading knows: 0830 was a P2 not a P2/3. 0842 was a Dino 206S.
     
  23. TheDevil

    TheDevil Karting

    Jul 14, 2014
    91
    ... that could be considered just a model scale 1/1 of the Geneva 1968 Ferrari 250/P5 show-car.
    I try to answer to your question, separately for [1] the body, [2] the chassis (+ suspensions & steering-gear) and [3] the engine-gearbox, mainly with past messages in the forum.


    [1] Body of the show-car "Ferrari 250/P5"

    [2] Chassis of the show-car "Ferrari 250/P5"

    2-A) returned to the "Gestione Sportiva" Ferrari as it was the chassis of the Ferrari sport-car #0862, already tested almost twice (at Modena and Vallelunga) in the month of November 1967.
    2-B) remained somewhere in the PF warehouse (neglected for more than 30 years and unknown to the majority of the Ferrari historians) and discovered when a rich Japanese collector visited PF in the year 2000 (more or less).

    [3] Engine of the show-car "Ferrari 250/P5"

    3-A) returned to the "Gestione Sportiva" Ferrari as it was an expensive F1 engine from the 312/1966.
    In a letter dated 08/05/2002 to Mr. J.Glickenhaus, Mr. Mark Ketcham pointed out about the 250/P5:
    Note that the exhausts are on the outside, so the heads are probably not F1 which used a dorsal exhaust, rather the P4 with outside exhaust and three valves.
    Eventually Mr. Ketcham didn't know that the Ferrari F1 engine 312/1966 was also built with the exhausts on the outside, as documented in a clear B. Cahier's photo.

    3-B) see point 2-B.

    --------------------
    p.s. @ Mr. M.Massini: I'd like to give a date to the exhaustive article written by Mr. C.Huet about the Ferrari #0862. Many thanks.
     
  24. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Biased on period photos from PF I now believe that Huet's article is wrong. I also believe that P5's original engine is the F1 engine that was attached to P5's original chassis in the PF period photos when the remains were stored in their basement after P5's original body was removed and used in the referenced Alfa Show car.
     

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