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Ferrari P5 prototype: is there a SN for the P4 chassis?

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by bitzman, Aug 29, 2015.

  1. bitzman

    bitzman Formula 3

    Feb 15, 2008
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    After getting thoroughly confused I happened to look on my coffee table and there on top of the stack of magazines was CAVALLINO #150 and on page 20 I found an ad for a 1969 Ferrari 212E Montagna spyder offered by RM at the Biltmore in Scottsdale, Jan. 20th, 2006. I look up this listing and there's RM saying they sold it for $1.650,000 on that day and that it was chassis number 0862--the auction catalog tells almost the whole story including its stint as a show car bodied as the P5.

    Here's the auction catalog listing: 1967 Ferrari 212 E Montagna | Vintage Motor Cars in Arizona 2006 | RM Sotheby's

    The part they left out is any mention of a Japanese collector. They say "At the completion of the 1971 season the 212 E Montagna was sold by Ferrari to noted collector Pierre Bardinon. It was acquired from him by noted enthusiast Jacques Setton in the early 80’s. The original 1969 body had in the meantime been fitted to Dino
    s/n 022 which fortuitously also found its way into Setton’s collection and while there the 1969 body was reunited with its European Mountain Championship chassis, 0862, and Tipo 232 engine, 1, to return it to its original configuration."

    Now that we know it was always a Dino chassis, the only remaining question for me is: what did Bardinon buy it for, and which body did it have on it when he bought it? Seems like there are two race car bodies the car could wear to be "correct" to its configuration in a select time period but certainly the less curvy body (unfortunately aesthetically less pleasing)--the one it was wearing in Scottsdale at the auction-- is the one it wore during the triumphant 1969 European Alpine Championship season.
     
  2. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/144176098-post16.html
     
  3. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
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    This car is confusing my brain. So..the car was deconstructed to turn it into an Alfa show car. Then the body was stripped again, and the chassis and parts were put into storage, only to be discovered then rebuilt back into the p5. Who did the reconstruction? Or did I miss that someplace..sorry for the questions, but google is not much help.

    I have always loved this car and it's strange history..
     
  4. Sempre_gilles

    Sempre_gilles Formula Junior

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  5. stevenwk

    stevenwk F1 Veteran

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    Agreed. My favorite PF 'one off.'

    Love everything about the car.

    P5's sister car, Alfa P33, has a V8, but never knew if that car is/was a runner?

    Anyone can confirm if it's a runner or not?
     
  6. F1tommy

    F1tommy F1 Veteran
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  7. bitzman

    bitzman Formula 3

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    #32 bitzman, Sep 10, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2015
    from Carstyling.ru

    "Heavily influenced by the Ferrari 250 - P5, the Pininfarina Alfa Romeo coupé prototype, on a Type 33 sports car chassis, in contrast to the Ferrari P6 which resulted in the BB (Boxer Berlinetta), returned to the concept of a concave front, ovoid rear wings, "gull-wing" doors and the transparent roof going right to the back of the car. The engine, as on the P5/6 prototype, is mounted in the middle of the car."

    I haven't found a picture of it showing the engine, but wouldn't it have been embarrassing to show an Alfa concept with a Ferrari engine? Also I am inclined to believe it is Dino 206SP sized because on the site

    1969 Alfa Romeo P33 Coupe (Pininfarina) - Studios

    there is a babe sitting on the car (can we still say "babe?") and either she is outsize, like 6' tall, or the car is smaller than the average 12 cylinder mid-engine race car.

    I will look for a directory of 33/2 SN to see if any went Pininfarina's way as a chassis for a concept car....so that car can be knocked out as one of the many guises of this chassis.
     
  8. Sempre_gilles

    Sempre_gilles Formula Junior

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    Since they were short on cash, I suppose there was only one "Ferrari 2000" prototype built. The Sotheby's auction catalog listed in post #26 claims this was "possibly" 0862
     
  9. TheDevil

    TheDevil Karting

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    I try again to give my 0,02 opinion and I ask to apologize my English mistakes.

    Between the 1968 Turin Show and the 1969 Paris Show, the original PF body of the 250/P5 was:
    1) taken off from the Ferrari chassis (type and number undetermined after 47 years);
    2) properly shortened and modified;
    3) fitted on the chassis Alfa Romeo 33 Stradale #750.33.115, to build the car known as "Alfa Romeo 33/2 Coupe' Speciale".

    So, the original body of the Ferrari 250/P5 is now the original body of the AR 33/2 at the Arese Museum, to my knowledge.

    The unquestioned fate of the 250/P5 original body seems:
    - absolutely reasonable, if the Ferrari chassis had to be returned to the factory at the end of the 1968, as it was the chassis Type600 #0862;
    - almost strange, if the Ferrari chassis remained at the Pininfarina warehouse (with a F1 engine and all other mechanical parts), as it was only a "show-frame" with no-value.

    I write "strange" because I think that it'd have been cheaper:
    - to built an entirely new body for the chassis AR 33 Stradale;
    - to storage the complete Ferrari 250/P5, ready to be sold as per the Drake's habit at that time.
     
  10. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    All of the Ferrari Show cars were/are owned by PF not by Ferrari built from no longer needed/scrapped chassis/parts/motors given to PF by Ferrari. Ferrari "scrapped" these parts so that they didn't have to pay Italian taxes.

    Period PF photo's clearly show P5's original chassis/empty motor and gearbox/suspension parts in storage in PF's warehouse and that those original parts were used by PF to "re" P5 for a client who later sold P5 on as per Marcel. P5's original body "shortened" was likely used on the Alfa show car you reference. When PF received the chassis from Ferrari it was damaged and they repaired it and that repair was visible on P5's chassis when they sold it to Japan.
     
  11. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    What was the repair that was visible when the chassis was sold to Japan? If this was a damaged chassis it was therefore a used chassis so it must have a chassis number on it somewhere just as Modulo has 0864 or evidence of 0864 being stamped on it or have I got that wrong?
     
  12. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Bent, damaged tubes PF replaced.

    When Ferrari "Scrapped" chassis they removed chassis plates which worked for tax purposes. Take Dino Competizione for example. Many believe, based on Ferrari records, it began as 034 but the chassis plate on it when I bought it from PF, which is a Ferrari chassis plate, is stamped 10523. Was that put on by PF? Probably.
    The chassis plate on Modulo is "512S n.27" Once again who put that on and when? It does match paperwork for Modulo as does 10523 for Dino Competizione. Modulo's engine was once 612 Can Am and it has stamps as does it's 612 Can Am gearbox. It's chassis shows use. It has evidence of previous stamping likely 0864.

    AFAIK P5 original chassis stampings were removed by Ferrari when they "scrapped" it and gave it to PF. A some point P5 was back at Ferrari at Classiche and PF was told the then owner was going to have Ferrari turn it into a runner but AFAIK that deal broke down.
     
  13. RP

    RP F1 World Champ

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    #38 RP, Sep 11, 2015
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    I find it to be a very pretty car, one of PF's best, and certainly one of my favorite Ferraris.

    Back to topic, didn't the P5 end up as the Alfa Romeo P33-2 show car?
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  14. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Read the thread. Body shortened and modified likely did. Chassis/engine/gearbox/etc. was used by PF to "Re..." P5 for Japanese Client as per PF period Photographs.
     
  15. bitzman

    bitzman Formula 3

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    So at least the auction company didn't claim that the 212E Montagna spyder also did a "guest spot" as the Alfa 33/2 Speciale (after it was the P5) , otherwise the buyer of the car would have something to worry about if he heard that the 33/2 Speciale still exists in 2015. Next time I go to Italy I'll try to see if they can lift the body to show the chassis number,(after finding out from Alfa people where the numbers are on a 33/2 chassis) I don't know how co-operative they are or who owns the car. Meanwhile I'm looking for a list of 33 chassis numbers to see if Alfa fans list any as being sent to Pininfarina to be used for a show car body.
     
  16. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    Article here by Chad Glass, who posts on FerrariChat I beleve, on the P5. I wonder if his source of information was the Christian Huet article that Marcel Massini posted or somewhere else?

    See here: Ferrari 250 P5, 0862, 33/3 and Other Numbers |
     
  17. F1tommy

    F1tommy F1 Veteran
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    #42 F1tommy, Sep 20, 2015
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    The only Alfa T33/2 extra designer Stradale chassis to have a rebody was this 1968 car by Pininfarina. The new rebody happened in 1970/71, also by PF. It has nothing to do with P5 other than it was sitting around at PF during that period of time.
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  18. bitzman

    bitzman Formula 3

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    To quote The Devil earlier

    "Between the 1968 Turin Show and the 1969 Paris Show, the original PF body of the 250/P5 was:
    1) taken off from the Ferrari chassis (type and number undetermined after 47 years);
    2) properly shortened and modified;
    3) fitted on the chassis Alfa Romeo 33 Stradale #750.33.115, to build the car known as "Alfa Romeo 33/2 Coupe' Speciale"."

    I hate to quote Wikileaks but they manage to have a few paragraphs on the Montagna spyder without saying its chassis number, but do say it's Dino chassis 020.

    ---------------------------WIKIPEDIA-----------------------------------------------------

    Development[edit]
    In 1964, Ferrari developed a 1.5- litre flat-12 engine for its 1512 F1 car. This basic design by Mauro Forghieri was modified by Stefano Jacoponi to create the Tipo 232 2-litre version used in the 212 E. Overall capacity of this engine was 1990.08cc, bore and stroke was 65mm X 50mm and the compression ratio was 11:1. Initially, the engine produced 280 bhp.[1][3] Two units of the Tipo 232 motor were produced, with the first scrapped following initial development and dyno testing. The second Tipo 232 engine was installed in the 1967 Sport 2000, a testbed car based on a 206 S Dino chassis (number 020). This car was tested in late 1967 by Chris Amon at Modena[4] and announced as a contender in the 1968 European Hill Climb Championship, but did not compete that season. Instead, this chassis was subsequently used (with a different Ferrari V12 drivetrain) in the Pininfarina 250 P5 show car, displayed at the Geneva, Los Angeles and Turin auto shows in 1968.[5][6]

    Dino chassis 020 and the Tipo 232 motor were reunited in late 1968, when Scuderia Ferrari decided to develop the Sport 2000 into the 212 E, under the supervision of Forghieri. The car was not considered reliable enough to compete in endurance events, and was instead optimized to race the short, winding courses of the European Hill Climb Championship. Peter Schetty was chosen to test and race the 212 E. Schetty was an experienced hill climb racer and test driver who would later become Scuderia Ferrari team manager. Following testing at Modena and Vallelunga, the 212 E was modified from its Sport 2000 specification. Headlights were removed, fuel capacity was reduced, and the car's body was modified to optimize aerodynamics and weight for hill climbs. Engine output and cooling systems were also improved. Power output at the start of the 1969 racing season varied from 300 to 320 bhp depending on tune.[1] As the 212 E, the car was given serial number 0862.[4]

    The numerical designation "212" refers to the 2-liter 12-cylinder engine, with the "E Montagna" designating its role as a racer in the "Europeo Montagna" Championship. The name is similar, but not a direct reference, to that of the 1950s Ferrari 212 Export.[4][7]

    Racing history[edit]
    Scuderia Ferrari entered the 212 E in the 1969 European Hillclimb Championship with Peter Schetty as the only team driver. Racing in the sport class, the car dominated the competition, winning every race in which it was entered.[1] Minor modifications of gearing, aerodynamics, and suspension setup were made during the season to adapt the car for each course.[4] After seven victories, including six absolute course records, the team withdrew from the final race of the season as they had already clinched the championship. The 212 E's dominance in 1969 was ensured by the lack of any viable rival, with the nearest competition an Abarth 2000 with 50 fewer horsepower. However, the car's overall speed was undeniable, evidenced by the course record Schetty set at Côte de Cesana-Sestrière, which remained unbroken for 13 years.[1][6]

    The car did not compete in 1970, although there was tremendous interest during this time from various drivers who wished to purchase the car from the factory. Ferrari eventually sold the car in late 1970 to Edoardo Lualdi-Gabardi, who commissioned the factory to fit a new body designed by Piero Lardi Ferrari. Lualdi-Gabardi used it to compete successfully in hill climbs during the 1971 racing season.[4][5][8]

    Significance[edit]
    The 212 E Montagna is historically significant due to its competition success and unique engine, as well as the chassis' use in the Pininfarina 250 P5 show car. Forghieri considered the 212 E and its Tipo 232 engine as a test platform and important developmental step towards the 1970s 312B F1 cars and 312PB sports racers, which used a newly designed 3.0-litre flat-12 engine.[4][7]

    The 212 E Montagna sold to a private buyer at RM's 2006 Scottsdale auction for $1,650,000
    ------------------------
    My question is: would it be worth more bodied as a Dino 206SP? I ask because though 206SP's might be worth more, if it never had a Dino 206SP body in the first place that wouldn't be right, would it? And all its glory on the track was won as the Montagna spyder.
     
  19. of2worlds

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  20. TheDevil

    TheDevil Karting

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  21. of2worlds

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  22. TheDevil

    TheDevil Karting

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  23. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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  24. Londogno

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    Assuming that the 250 P5 is 036 could be pretty viable, but while checking on Barchetta CC, I found that this s/n is presumed to be that of the P6. And if Mr. Glickenhaus is right in saying that P5 is 036, then what s/n corresponds to the P6?
     

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