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Glickenhaus' SCGs

Discussion in 'Special Projects & Concept Cars' started by Igor Ound, Jul 18, 2018.

  1. BJK

    BJK Formula 3

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    #251 BJK, Sep 10, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2020
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  3. BJK

    BJK Formula 3

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  4. Igor Ound

    Igor Ound F1 Veteran

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    $278k?

    So it’s that or 10 new Broncos?
     
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  6. lambchop

    lambchop Karting

    Apr 29, 2005
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    Or, like, you know man, 40 fieros to a F8. All that Winning Jimmy hate get'n the best of you.
     
  7. Igor Ound

    Igor Ound F1 Veteran

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    So when are you buying yours? :)
     
  8. lambchop

    lambchop Karting

    Apr 29, 2005
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    Is this the logic that prohibits me from preferring a new gulf stream to the kite which I can afford? I would purchase a new SCG over a new F car. Any day. All day. No plans on purchasing either at the moment.
     
  9. Igor Ound

    Igor Ound F1 Veteran

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    Mate, I really couldn’t care less what you prefer or if you call me a hater. Still think it’s way overpriced for what it is.
     
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  11. lmpdesigner

    lmpdesigner Formula 3
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    Yes $278K seems like a lot. But please note:

    Doing any limited production street legal (or even non street legal) car like Jim is doing, whether a sports car or off road type car is hideously expensive. Way, way, way more than anyone here on F-Chat (save a few) could begin to understand. Doing 5, 10, 50, even 100 off is so far different from doing a reasonable volume that they are not comparable. If you are doing a street legal car just the cost of doing the analysis for airbags will run you 3-6 million dollars! So if you make 10 cars then the amortized costs per car is 300k to 600k! For 10 thousand cars it drops to $300-$600 per car. When you sell 1 million a year for 10 years (Ford F150) that cost drops to 30 to 50 cents a car.

    So never, ever look at a small production street legal car in the same "lense" as a "typical" OEM car. The OEM car may be as good (probably better/more reliable) than the limited volume car at 10-25% of the cost. It is the magic of high volume.

    having been involved in many low volume production car programs I kinda know how it works.

    Frankly I think Jim is doing an incredible job at what he is trying. Nobody, in the past 20-30 years is trying to do what he is, and succeeding at it the way he is. All I can say is I have massive respect for his efforts and success and I hope he winds up making mega-money as a result, but I know better. Methinks he will, when all is over, maybe break even or make a little money. But more likely he will be "cash out of hand".

    Hat off to you Mr. Glickenhaus.
     
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  12. Igor Ound

    Igor Ound F1 Veteran

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    I believe he took advantage of a loophole so doesn’t need airbags or crash tests?
     
  13. lmpdesigner

    lmpdesigner Formula 3
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    The airbags were an example of what it costs to do a car nowadays. There are many others.

    And I am not sure of what loophole there is in the USA for doing a USA legal car without airbags/crash tests.

    The loophole currently being used by many is that a mfg can make up to 300 cars of a previous mfg car that existed before most of there rules.

    • Low volume manufacturer: a motor vehicle manufacturer whose annual worldwide production (including by a parent or subsidiary of the manufacturer) is not more than 5,000 motor vehicles each year. The company can sell up to 325 replica vehicles in the U.S. each year, with no limit on the number of incomplete kit cars that can be sold.
    • A replica vehicle is a vehicle that resembles the body of another motor vehicle produced at least 25 years ago (’32 Roadster, ’65 Cobra, etc.).
    What Jim is doing does not qualify for the above.
     
  14. lmpdesigner

    lmpdesigner Formula 3
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    H.R. 22, the “Fixing America’s Surface Transportation Act”
    SEC. 24405. TREATMENT OF LOW-VOLUME MANUFACTURERS.
    NHTSA Provisions
    E XEMPTION F ROM V EHICLE S AFETY S TANDARDS F OR L OW -V OLUME M ANUFACTURERS .
     The Motor Vehicle Safety Act is amended to add an exemption for low
    volume manufacturers [49 U.S.C. § 30114]
     A “low volume manufacturer” is a motor vehicle manufacturer whose
    annual worldwide production (including by a parent or subsidiary of the
    manufacturer) is not more than 5,000 motor vehicles each year.
     A low volume manufacturer may construct and sell up to 325 replica vehicles
    in the U.S. each year.
     A replica vehicle is a vehicle that resembles the body of another motor
    vehicle produced at least 25 years ago. The vehicle is subject to a license
    agreement for the intellectual property rights for the replicated vehicle from
    the original manufacturer, its successor/assignee or the current owner of the
    replicated vehicle’s intellectual property rights.
     Replica vehicles will be treated as an assemblage of automobile equipment
    and subject to any current motor vehicle equipment safety standards (lighting,
    tires, windshields, brake hoses, etc.). They are exempt from safety standards
    that apply to motor vehicles (roof crush, side impact, bumper standard, etc.).
    The exemption recognizes that it is impractical to apply current model year
    standards to vehicles designed decades ago (ex: 1930’s roadster) or crash a
    vehicle when only a few are being produced.
     Replica vehicles are exempt from the country of original labeling requirement,
    fuel economy ratings and the Monroney label requirement.
     Replica vehicle manufacturers are required to register with the National
    Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) and file annual production
    reports. NHTSA has 90 days to approve or deny the registration application
    (and 30 more days if the application is incomplete). Once approved, a
    registration may be revoked if the company fails to comply with the program
    requirements or if NHTSA issues a finding of a safety-related defect which
    the company has not corrected.
     A permanent label is to be affixed to the vehicle identifying the standards
    from which the vehicle is exempt and designating the model year that the
    vehicle replicates. NHTSA may require that the manufacturer provide a
    written notice of the exemption(s) to the dealer and first purchaser.
     Aside from the provided exemptions, replica vehicle manufacturers will be
    treated as motor vehicle manufacturers subject to recordkeeping and
    defect/noncompliance notification and remedy requirements.
     Replica vehicles are subject to state titling and registration laws and regulations.
    EPA Provisions
    V EHICLE E MISSION C OMPLIANCE S TANDARDS F OR L OW -V OLUME M OTOR V EHICLE
    M ANUFACTURERS .
     Section 206(a) of the Clean Air Act (42 U.S.C. 7525(a)) is amended to allow
    the replica vehicle to be equipped with a motor vehicle engine (including all
    engine emissions control equipment) which is already covered by an
    Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) certificate of conformity for the
    current model year in which the replica vehicle is produced. The replica
    vehicle will then be deemed emissions compliant.
     The EPA will also deem the replica vehicle as being emissions compliant
    if the installed motor vehicle engine (including all engine emissions control
    equipment) has received an Executive Order from the California Air Resources
    Board (CARB).
     The engine manufacturer will supply written instructions for installing the
    engine and maintaining functionality of the on-board diagnostic system,
    except with respect to evaporative emissions diagnostics. The replica vehicle
    manufacturer must install the engine per these instructions and self-certify the
    installation.
     The replica vehicle manufacturer must affix emission control labels to the
    vehicle and provide the customer with emission control warranty information
    from the engine manufacturer, including where warranty repairs can be made,
    along with the EPA certificate of conformity number for the vehicle in which
    the engine was originally intended or the applicable CARB Executive Order
    (EO) number.
     Replica vehicles are exempt from state-based emissions testing since the
    vehicles will have current model year engines.
     Replica vehicle manufacturers are required to register with EPA and file annual
    production reports that include a description of the engine installed and the
    applicable vehicle certificate of conformity number or CARB EO number.
     Except as otherwise provided, the replica vehicle manufacturer will be
    considered a vehicle manufacturer subject to applicable regulations, including
    being subject to civil penalties for compliance failures.
    NHTSA and the EPA will have 12 months after enactment to issue any necessary regulations
    to implement the law.
     
  15. lmpdesigner

    lmpdesigner Formula 3
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    Replica vehicles will be treated as an assemblage of automobile equipment
    and subject to any current motor vehicle equipment safety standards (lighting,
    tires, windshields, brake hoses, etc.). They are exempt from safety standards
    that apply to motor vehicles (roof crush, side impact, bumper standard, etc.).

    The exemption recognizes that it is impractical to apply current model year
    standards to vehicles designed decades ago (ex: 1930’s roadster) or crash a
    vehicle when only a few are being produced.

    Again-Not a Glickenhaus progarm.
     
  16. Igor Ound

    Igor Ound F1 Veteran

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    Have a look that’s what he’s doing anyway
     
  17. lmpdesigner

    lmpdesigner Formula 3
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    Interesting. Looked at Jims website. He claims his cars meet US "low volume manufacturer" status.

    But as you can read below, The DOT does not have such a category.

    Mr. Gerard Bonvin
    Auto Cheyenne USA Inc.
    6611 1/2 West 6th Street
    Los Angeles, CA 90036

    Dear Mr. Bonvin:

    This is in reply to your letter of December 15, 1994, with respect to the relationship of certain DOT regulations to the Cheyenne, a small front-wheel drive utility vehicle that you wish to import and distribute in the United States.

    You have asked the following questions: is that compliance

    "What are the procedure to follow in order to be categorize Small Volume manufacturer?"

    Your question assumes that we have a category of "small volume manufacturer." We do not, and there is no exclusion from the Federal motor vehicle safety standards (FMVSS) based upon the volume produced by the manufacturer. All motor vehicles must comply with all FMVSS, unless the agency has exempted them from one or more of the standards. We do recognize limited production volume in the regulation under which a manufacturer who produces less than 10,000 motor vehicles of all types may apply for a temporary exemption on the base would cause it substantial economic hardship, and must provide production information as part of its application.

    (https://www.nhtsa.gov/interpretations/0566)

    So not sure what Jim is doing. I can only assume what he is doing is legal, yet I cannot find any regulation that allows him to do this. I have been in this business for a while and am pretty familiar to the laws concerning this. But Jim is not stupid and I am not an expert in this area (though pretty well versed.) So I hope Jim has found a way to get his cars US road legal. But I have my doubts....

    The issue is that the government (DOT) creates the rules but does not enforce them "a priori" on the OEMS. That is, the DOT assumes that the OEM's meet all required DOT/EPA rules. (Self certification.) The DOT doesn't check that every car made meets every reg. But if you are an OEM and do a car that doesn't meet some crash reg and if someone gets injured in that car and if a lawyer is smart enough to make the connection then as the OEM you will now have a multi, multi millon lawsuit on your hands, plus the DOT coming after you with all barrels.

    I should ask Jim next time we chat. But really not an issue that should concern me. It is Jim's program, not mine and no reason for me to stick my nose into his dealings.
     
  18. Igor Ound

    Igor Ound F1 Veteran

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    If it has no airbags or is not even crash tested makes it even more overpriced for what it is though
     
  19. donv

    donv F1 World Champ
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  20. BJK

    BJK Formula 3

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    #269 BJK, Sep 18, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2020
    From SCG Facebook, Sept. 16 '20

    STATE OF OUR STATE
    Our final 007 Le Mans Hypercar wind tunnel session is this week. Our Pipo engine will be on the dyno early October and we will begin building up our first 007 in November. We be ready to test in January and ready to race with two cars in March at Sebring.
    We believe our LMH is a great way forward for other teams. For 5mm euros we'll sell you a car, spares and provide race support and rebuilds for Sebring, Spa and Le Mans. We are also willing to sell our chassis and engineering services to other manufacturers who may want to consider our platform with their engine and body design as an alternative to LMDh. We can also provide engines with hybrid if desired.

    Our 004C has undergone a bit of re engineering since our 6 HR test race and we look forward to the N24 next week and think we'll do well. We believe our 004C will interest other teams and Gentleman and Gentlewomen drivers as a GT3 or a track day car at 600HP. We strongly believe that our 004C at 600HP endurance/650HP sprint will make a very interesting cost effective alternative to GTE for the WEC/IMSA/DTM and hope those organizers will consider our proposal for a new GT class.

    We are constantly re-engineering and our Boot will be ready for the Baja 1000 with many improvements and a bit more HP.

    Our 004S prototype will be ready to test next week and we'll bring her to to Ring where Jesse and I will drive her and we'll let Mate Patrany of "Drive" drive her as well.
    We really believe that our 004 road legal models will rock a lot of established brands.

    Just to clear up any confusion both our Boot and our 004's will meet all FMVSS and EPA/CARB requirements.
    We've already passed three crash tests on our Boot and will soon be crash test our 004's.
    Our low volume status simply refers to the fact that as of now we build less than 4999 vehicles a year and has nothing to do with our full FMVSS/EPA/CARB compliance.


    So far we've sold to customers 3 2dr Boots, 5 003's, 1 007, 1 004C and have about 30 2021 004's and 20 2021 Boots pre-sold. Our goal is to be selling about 100 004's and Boots a year soon.
    003's will remain very limited production and we will soon be offering 008's and 006's for sale as well.

    .
     
  21. 9nb

    9nb Formula Junior

    Sep 1, 2012
    260
    Curious to see the final 004S moving on it’s own power, as well as the final design on the 006. Also would be interesting to see how they are accepted by owners and journalists. As always rooting for SCG and wishing them the best of luck!

    We need more people like Jim and Jesse.
     
  22. Smiles

    Smiles Moderator
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    I’m very tempted by the SCG 004 in carbon fiber.

    Matt
     
  23. Igor Ound

    Igor Ound F1 Veteran

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    How much would one be?
     
  24. BJK

    BJK Formula 3

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    About 1/3 the price of a 003S, but like the Boot, too much of course. After all, you could buy 4 C8's for the same price. Reee-dic-u-lus!!! :rolleyes:
    .
     
  25. Igor Ound

    Igor Ound F1 Veteran

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    Ain’t gonna get that JG check anymore if you speak of his cars like that. Don’t think I’ve asked you anyway so do you have a number or mum hasn’t taught you to count already? A C8 is $60000 so how many of them if it makes it easier for you?
     

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