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Have Ferraris Changed

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by delaney, Dec 6, 2020.

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  1. delaney

    delaney Formula Junior
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    Talking to a guy the other day we began comparing old Ferraris with the new modern ones. He has a selection so he’s qualified to comment. One interesting thing he said was that all the old Ferraris felt like sports cars… The testarossa, the 512 M etc. etc.He commented that the new ones even though they had 6-700 hp were so smooth and automated for want of a better word, that they lacked the vitality and sportiness of the older breed. He thought the challenge of driving the older ones had been taken away by the million ECUs in the modern cars. I was wondering if you guys and ladies who owned the more modern cars felt the same way.
     
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  3. armedferret

    armedferret Formula Junior

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    all cars have changed. safer, easier to drive, more comfy, etc.

    ferrari is not immune to the world moving forward.
     
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  4. BlacktopRacing

    BlacktopRacing Formula Junior

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    Yeah, it's been happening with all brands and models. It's called evolution. While I can appreciate the raw, visceral exprience of tossing something like a 288 GTO around, a 458 is just 100x the car, and I'd rather have the confidence tossing that around knowing it's safer at 120mph than the 288 was at 60mph.
     
  5. Michael B

    Michael B F1 Rookie
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    Sure, these statements above are facts. The best part is that you can choose.

    I have a few older cars that I prefer. I have pals that look at me funny when I leave my more modern stuff in the garage & chose the vintage keys (might be something more to that than the cars). But I still chose the vintage stuff when I am buying even though they are essentially the same money to purchase.

    I luv both versions but its 9:1 (older Vs newer) in my garage.
     
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  6. Lagunae92

    Lagunae92 Formula Junior
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    My Pista sure feels like a sports car after driving my X7.
     
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  8. Doctor Mark

    Doctor Mark Formula Junior

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    I have owned Ferraris since 1974. The older cars were very different than other cars back then. The newer cars less so. In addition, the more limited number of cars made them less common and more unique often differing from car to car in the same series. Times change, purchasers change as do their expectations for safety, reliability, electronic do-dads and creature comforts. Now the corporate stockholders must be happy too. When computers and teams design and build cars that must also satisfy govt regulations, much of the vision of one man is lost and with that it’s distinct character.
    There is nothing that sounded as good as an old Ferrari V12 at high revs.
     
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  9. m5shiv

    m5shiv Formula 3
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    I beg to differ. The 288 is an exceptional car, massive confidence, massive grip, lightweight, manual, unlimited sensation.
     
  10. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    A sports car is so subjective. I think you talk to folks in F1; they'll say the '40s were the real deal, others will say the 60s - modern folks laugh at them and say I thought sports meant fast?

    He's right; all the people that answer here are correct, and you're right too.

    Buffet rules.

    In my first round, I take a sampling of a little of everything.

    My seconds are the ones I *really* like.

    :)

    That is the 'real' sports car.
     
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  11. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    The experince is different. The sensation of a modern is far more unidimensional.
    The moderns thrill with sheer velocity but are otherwise more like a gt car.
    The Older ones are a far more immersive experience.
    The rest ones are painless in traffic the older ones can be painful in traffic.

    mid younhabe the right roads, and personal ability the holder cars are a very absorbing experience. The moderns are pretty bland at any sort of semi sane road speed.

    now a modern Ferrari could offer the same and even enhances sensations the older cars offer, but Ferrari Does not deign to build such a car seeing the pool of buyers as too limited. They thought the same thing when they had to produce the 288 it was so oversubscribed they built and sold 1500 of the even more raw f40. Since then Ferrari has made “faster” Easier to use and comfortable cars that are also alas increasingly remote.

    a 458 with a v12 stick and no mower steering would be a modern rendition of the type of car Ferrari used to build. Beautiful, great motor alive and requiring skill to drive
    Not gonna happen
     
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  13. KC360 FL

    KC360 FL Formula 3
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    #10 KC360 FL, Dec 7, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2020
    As an owner of "special " cars for many years I can say it is a balance. Manufactures want to sell cars. Their design and build parameters are based on a collection of all those potential buyers that have a wide variety of expectations. So I get it. The safety stuff too should be in the right measure. Nobody wants a "nanny" car.

    To add, most who buy a Ferrari these days plan to drive the car regularly, some even as a daily driver. That in itself can be a big factor in how much tech and comfort are considered and incorporated into any of the new Ferrari offerings. I know even when I was considering my first Ferrari (the 360) I was first and foremost concerned about how reliable it would be-- even as a limited use sports car. And we have the tech advancements to thank for most of that.

    But with that said I a have been wondering for some time now how well would an "old school" offering by Porsche, Ferrari, etc. sell? Probably not well enough to show the right numbers to keep such sales in the black. But still...
     
  14. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    If you look at classic car sales, the old school sless really well. Aircooled 911s are an example.
    As you say tech can add reliability of the type older cars lacked, thats a great application of tech. Old 911s are popular because they work, but are still classics.

    Porche sort of straddles the line with the GT4 and Gt3 in stick. Dodge challengers with stick also sell in relatively big numbers.
    Gordon Murry T50 is oversubscribed and thats a car will all the old school engagement but modern performance.

    We also see the component car industry, all those cobras and even the tool room copies and reissues from oems, from aston to Jag.

    I dont think a modern raw car from ferrari woudl sell in huge numbers, the pool of buyers is as we say limited. It takes a buyer who appreciates what it is, an objectively slower car, but far more engaging and enjoyable. As a special run of a few thousand cars over a few years every now and again ti surely would sell and woudl keep the ferrari crucible alive. Pergaps when the world gors electric, ferrari will start to make a few ICE cars for being the essence of ice, call it the classic inspired line, much as ducatri builds the monster.

    Either ferrari will or the aftermarket will.
     
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  15. KC360 FL

    KC360 FL Formula 3
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    Agreed. All good points. Coincidentally, I'm a Porsche guy from way back. My last was a 993 with about as much tech as I was willing to live with (also the last air cooled of course). Really didn't see my wanting to upgrade. And with the GT3 engine debacle, I was out. I guess it's avoidable that these companies simply want to make more $$ and appeal to a vast array of drivers--- many of which like ourselves simply accept the "tech" grudgingly as a necessary evil.

    I love my 360. And frankly I have looked at moving into a 458 but after driving one, I just don't feel the necessary visceral connection.
    Better car? Sure. More power? Of course. More beautiful to look at than my 360? Some days I believe it is. But the soul of the 458 for me is lacking and has been stored away, so deep in the recesses of the black box controls, that I can hardly recognize it -- or feel it anymore.

    PS: and yes, I got more for my 993 than what I paid for it. Something to think about when we are discussing the wants of the true sports car enthusiast.

    Cheers, Ken
     
  16. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Agreed on the 458, when new I test drove one twice, it just never happened for me. Spent more on a Gt40 replica which was its own drama.

    One possible futire is what we see singer doing with aircooled 911s. Cars redone to be more than new, but reimagined to perfection and with another order of magnitude in performance while still being anolog.

    Imagine 308s done the same way.
     
  17. BlacktopRacing

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    Sounds more like we agree. I never said anything negative about the 288. It's still one example of how dramatically different older f-cars are from new ones.
     
  18. ginoBBi512

    ginoBBi512 Formula Junior
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    I read a lot of good posts here, I would like to be able to afford a newer modern Ferrari someday, 488 , or F8 Tributo, or 599 , I know inherently they are going to feel much different then my 328, and Im ok with that, because their incredible beauty is enough to make my heart race, and well with 700 Hp , I think I could have a lot of fun with that, as long as I have a huge tire budget ! lol

    Thank you
     
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  19. Themaven

    Themaven F1 Rookie
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    I think everyone’s kind of agreeing in a way, here..and I agree with everyone.

    But I have to say: earlier this year I had a 812 SF for review for a while, while my own Ferraris, including the F512M, were sitting in the garage under their covers. I would take the 812 over the 512M every day. It’s a blast, in every way. Not all the older cars were brilliant, and the Testa series was more show than go, and yes that includes the M...in my view.
     
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  20. Sassicaia

    Sassicaia Karting
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    I really enjoy the sound and fury of my 575M's V12 in 3rd or 4th climbing to 7000.

    As Doctor Mark has accurately concluded: "There is nothing that sounded as good as an old Ferrari V12 at high revs."
     
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  21. gw32

    gw32 Karting

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    15 to 20 years from now we will be looking back on the current F car line up with fond memories....."you actually hard to pay attention when you drove them, and the noise!
     
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  22. stretchgeneral

    stretchgeneral Formula Junior
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    There are the same debates when every new model replaces the older one. Several posts in the 458 section on how the 488 sounds so tame etc. in comparison. When I drove my 1974 MGB I thought it ran like a bat out of hell at the time. It is relative. If I put a normal person in my 458 and hit 9,000 rpm, screaming down the street, they would not be thinking about how refined it was.
     
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  23. m5shiv

    m5shiv Formula 3
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    A 458 is not 100x the 288, not even a Speciale.
     
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  24. paulchua

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    Couldn't agree more. It's all relative. Also, I think a lot will be generational, just what you grew up with and are used to, especially during your formative years.
     
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  25. paulchua

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    I completely agree with you. When I was at my daughter's grade school, part of my soul died when I heard the boys discussing how cool the 'whine' is for electrical cars, and how 'yucky' old fashion engines sound.

    Time and progress stop for no-one, we'll be like the creatures that fuel our cars soon enough. Smoke em' if you got em.'

    :)
     
  26. paulchua

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    You're absolutely correct @m5shiv, but I know a cohort that would pooh-pooh the 288 in terms of the speed and say it's slow. I certainly don't think so. Very different machines. It's just so subjective on what is a 'real sports' car. However, I can't deny that part of the 'sports' car measure that is objective come down to one word:

    Speed.

    No matter how much I would take your 288 over a 458 any day, none of us can rewrite the rules of physics. To some, the 'best' sports car comes down to speed Über alles - it's not me, but I certainly understand the sentiment.

    @delaney, the key is to experience these things yourself and find out what is the 'best' for you. None of us can tell you that. It's like asking us about the person you want to marry. Only you can answer that question.
     
  27. Natkingcolebasket69

    Natkingcolebasket69 F1 Veteran
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    U are right!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  28. italiafan

    italiafan F1 World Champ

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    I agree with all of you agreeing with each other! :)

    I feel as though I have found my personal “car guy era” with the cars from ~2009-2019.
    I find the latest cars to be too fast for absorbing the driving experience, and thus they no longer interest me.
    I find the reliability and confidence-inspiring performance of the relatively modern cars to be more enjoyable than cars > 20 years old.

    I find the 458 (+ +Speciale) to be the absolute pinnacle of mid-engined production V8 Ferrari’s.
    The 16M gets the prize for most raw + modern reliability.
    The Porsche 991.2 GT3 with manual gets prize for most visceral sports car with modern reliability and performance.

    I am interested in the Porsche 992 GT3 with manual (especially touring version) since it continues the spirit of the 991.2; but for how long will this continue?
    The F8 just might be an option, but barely. Too fast, too quiet, too refined as a GT car.
    The V6 hybrid and similar coming down the pike from Ferrari...not a chance in hell I will buy.
     
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