Have Ferraris Changed

Having owned both Enzo era and Luca era Ferraris (I have have driven, but not owned anything more recent), to me there is no question that the older cars provide more subjective pleasure than the newer ones. To me they are more involving, more engaging and more connected to the driver. Ultimate performance doesn’t interest me all that much.

 

true but below 9-10ths pace the 458 feels like just a car and Therein lays the problem, not least because there are few places you can excercise a 458 at full chat, and even those few places you can it’s just for a snippet of time.

a more analogue car is fun and entertaining at more speeds and more road attainable speeds. There are simply more points of enagement for the driver.

it’s not just about how fast you go but Also how you go fast that counts. That’s why the f1 is so revered and the t50 looks so excellent. Ferrari in their quest for ease of use and speed has lost some magic esp below 9/10ths pace

 

At the same time, I've come to appreciate the later cars' refinement, stiffness, and comfort. Don't get me wrong, I agree entirely with you @boxerman - the older cars have that viscerality that just doesn't exist in today's vehicles at all low speeds. I guess that's why I think it only comes down to the individual and their particular set of priorities.

Best to you.

 

Well said.
And as for it all coming down to speed, I say it all comes down to bragging rights. I've always driven the "older" offerings of any marque, but especially the 911s (nearly 40 years a PCA member) and have long since known that the NA 911s I drove were no giant killers. But for me it's more than that. It's balance, feel in the driver's seat, handling, and reliability of not just the drivetrain but everything from the power windows to the electrical system as a whole. Fast for the track is great-- been there done that. Fast on public roads, we are all limited to how much HP we can actually and safely enjoy.
To add; I saw guys with less HP in their 911s than I had and they would cook me in the turns. Knowing how to drive your car can really make up for a lot of HP. And of course a moot point on any "street' driven car.

Regards, Ken

 

[QUOTE="KC360 FL, post: 147611749, member: 209131
To add; I saw guys with less HP in their 911s than I had and they would cook me in the turns. Knowing how to drive your car can really make up for a lot of HP. And of course a moot point on any "street' driven car.

Regards, Ken[/QUOTE]

Momentum cars with little HP are the most engaging ... really leaned how to drive in a Lotus...fast exit out of corners.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

True, but I need air conditioning.

 

variety is the spice of life.
i enjoy driving cars of all origins and most (post war) periods.
many times i have set out on a sunday to drive the full flight of ferraris i had/have, going from oldest to youngest, and it was a great way to appreciate the differences over time and design evolution.

the older cars take some thought prior setting off - you have to remember what you are driving and what the limitations are - no power anything, heavy clutches, older brakes etc, so you have to be paying attention and be very aware of your surroundings, listen for all the noises etc.
the younger cars are more about the ease of speed.

if we include non-ferraris in this discussion.....how would you like to drive a 1954 austin healey 100 bn2 and then step into a fisker.....talk about changes !

 

Ross youre touching on a few points here.
To me the oder ferraris can be driven close to or at max on the road here and there. the guys in the moderns are going no faster, but theyre basicaly just holding back cause on road you cant use all the performance the moderns have. Experienced this many times on club runs. I get the comment wow you really push that old car, but truth is Im just driving it as its meant to be. True after 40 mins to an hour when we stop and my brain has been 100% focussed on the drive and Im ready to rest a bit, I had more engaging fun, maybe..
My modern Alfa gulia already has the more than enough go to use on street. I do get it though, moderns are painless and good ones still entertain with their sharp reactions, plus you can drive in comfort and then grab 2 or three bends if they open up.

Your healy comparison opens up another point. Back in the day Ferraris were the pinacle of performance. In 1968 or 1978 the delta between a ferrari and evrything else (excpet a lambo) was a chasm. The totality of experience was chasm too.
Nowdays we can debate whether a f8 is faster than a Gt2 Rs or whether either is as good to drive as a Gt3. There's audi mercdes and even tesla that seem to offer as good "road" performance. Even some regular sedans and M series BMWS have excpetional handling and power on road. Realisticaly on road you're going no faster in your modern ferrari than what is easily acheicvable in any number of other more pedestrian cars.

Ferrari still has the styling down and the objective experience from steering to sound to brakes to power delivery still puts them tops, but their points of differentiation are far narrower than it was.
Thats before we even talk about what are sure to be some really fast and evolved versions of the new Me vette coming out over the next few years, and the z06 is going to have a NA flat plane crank, something great that ferrari lost..

Personaly the new car I would most like to try is the euro only GR yaris, that looks to be blast on road along witht he alpine A110. Not to say I woudl kick a F8 out of bed. But if you offered me the keys to any 3 ferraris I have not driven yet no 1 would be a 288, 250 swb followed by a daytona. After that It would be a speciale or pista. Nah probably no 4 would be aF50 and then the moderns.

 

The last comment got me to reply.

I love the faster cars, but the F50 is very special.

The sound of that 12 cylinder engine at 4,000 RPM and higher, even while in a line of cars going up a hill, is spectacular.

But as a track aficionado, the faster modern cars just make the senses have to be faster. More speed into a corner is exhilarating. Cornering at higher speeds is addictive. Going into a slower car winds up just being less. I’m not saying it cannot be fun, it’s just less.

I also think extensive tracking allows one to see the real strengths and weaknesses amongst the cars. I’ve sold a number of cars people still wax on about because they are simply inferior track performers. Lest you consider it just my inabilities on track, I’ve had my coaches and professional driver friends verify the shortcomings. This paragraph references current competing vehicles, so is off-topic in the historic comparisons sense.

Lastly, the 2011 GT3RS, F50, and Challenge Stradale remain phenomenal street cars. Cars to never let go.

 

yesterday, i parked the bbi and took up the 512tr.....they are 9 years apart but might as well be 20+ years in terms of build quality, ride, comfort, ease.
not that the 512tr is a slouch - it most definitely is not, but it is an easier drive than the bbi.

that being said, i dearly love the 512tr. it is at that happy point of the early 90's where we seem to find the best of both worlds.
it is a joy to drive that car.
and unlike the bbi, at least some people know what they are looking at.

 

As a HPDE Instructor since 1996, I absolutely like it when students show up in newer, high tech cars because they are so much safer. The last guy I want to right seat with is someone with a 1992 Dodge Viper or AC 427 Cobra Replica. Newer cars have traction control and dynamic stability, which literally makes "saves" when the driver input is less than stellar, it keeps us on the blacktop and out of the tree line or Armco. We used to see a lot more off-track excursions at track events in the 90's than we do today, and far less roll-overs as well.

As for my personal rides, I also prefer newer. To me, nothing is quaint about smelly, slow, ill-handling old iron that can't stop or corner as well as the latest/greatest from most any manufacturer. I have owned (4) Air-Cooled 911's over the years and am amused how much those primitive machines with - I believe they call it "soul" - can sell for. If that floats your boat, have at it, but I never have missed a single one of them.

 

So...that is OLD to you and your "friend". I imagine that a 308, 512 BBi and Daytona are ANCIENT; and anything before 1967 is prehistoric LoL

 

Agreed ross, you can relate to this.... took the F40 to a Toy drive today and the whole experience is sublime compared to say the Speciale or any modern car.
I think the key word is Patience.
Even starting the F40, I sit and wait for it to warm up 5-10 min. soaking in the smells, vibrations, and feeling the old felt, staring at the old temp gauges move up slowly. Then the slow initiation of the warm up drive to let second gear warm up before slotting that gear in.
When up to temp and even at full throttle, you have to “wait” for the crescendo of acceleration for the turbos to kick in to warp speed.
Speciale, I just hop in, warm up and go. It’s the sign of the times. Instant gratification.
Sometimes, patience and soaking in some foreplay can lead to a great climax.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Some very interesting posts here, agreed with parts of almost all of them

But I have to say it is impossible to prefer "all Era specific Ferraris" over "all modern Ferraris" and vice versa.
It is kind of like being at a Fourseason's open buffet for lunch, you will chose Ur classic preferences mostly ofcourse, but U will not pass trying a YUMMY new thing out of a "live cooking" pan special at the corner (may become a preference later on).
And that is why there is almost no collection of Ferraris missing at least a modern F car, or the other way arround!
They R all better than each other in something
That is why we have "big" and "bigger" garages,,,

 

This

 

He're were seperating track cars from road cars, apples to oranges, the older road cars have something the moderns do not. The moderns could have that specialness, enagement and ocasion, but they do not. It appears a T50 most assuredly will and to the extent a lotus eilse is a modern it has the specialness too.

But lets jump in on track cars. Having instructed myself its beyond true that in the right seat with a "student" you want all the nannies the world can offer and then some. I shudder to think what a novice will do in a viper or ac cobra replica. One needs to learn in something far more modest and keep ego in check. In the old days those who would not learn or listen learned on the sheets, ie the hospital bed.

Its true that a novice can take an overpowered modern car with nanies and not crash while thrilling themselvs with some raw speed down the straights, but beyond the novice on track that blandness is not a plus. And the novice is having fun but barely learning. For me the Maclren 570GT4 at lrp, well the car did it all for me, so I'm sure in a race its devastating, but otherwise the elise was simply far more fun and engaging. The elise is a modern in terms of reliability handling and brakes but its not synthesized, and therein lays the difference, it requires the driver, same with the exige exept the volume is turned up to 21. Ill bet same with the new dallara T50 etc. So yes not getting killed by student a modern is great, to drive less so. Theres a reason people below pro level love historic racing too, and a loa T70 will still smoke a ferrai challenge car.

Same on the streets except here the modern is even less fun because the eps,turboed esp modern needs velocity to thrill on corners and that type of velocity on road is near impossible to sanely acheive except in limited circumstances.Its not just soul, also engagement which maybe is part of soul. Theres a reason why 50% of the global race car population are miata. At billionaire country club tracks its still 50% of the track car population, and there budget is not the issue. Insteqad of soul lets call it engagement of all the senses, lets call it cars that can perform magic laptimes even if objectively slightly slower, but they require you to do it.

One last note about modern road cars on track Pretty much any road car is going to be too soft on track. The alfa 4c was surprisngly not, and clearly Gt3s are not. But over at the 458 488 thread you can read tales of woe from owners who start to track those cars hard. So yes a F8 is fun to own, sounds great and on the right roads can be a blast, for a casual track day if you dotn mind burning 5k in brakes tires etc its can sorta hack it thrill and not hurt you. A Gt3 or Gt4 is going to be a great choice on track.

On an open twisty road sundat drive, a 288 is simply going to be more fun, more engaging and more absorbing. On modern weekday highway traffic road youll simply suffer in a 288. A modern ferrari will be comfortable and easy rolling through traffic, ac stero, no pain, if a coner open up you can send it and slow down again. Simply different machines with different function. But a cayman Gt4 does that modern function too, arguably is more engaging and with a more evocative(if less powerful) motor, and that points to what ferrari has lost.

As someone here said. A 458 with a 599v12 stick and lightened is acar ferrai could have made for some of us, and it would have been infintely more appealing, probably would be revered like a 288 or f40. Or imagine what one could do to make a pista like a f40. Cf bodywork really stripped minimal nannies no need for eps and a stick. A modern with soul. I like modern performance, brakes, suspension,power, but not at the cost of the rest, thats why the older cars antique and cantankerous as they are offer somehting. Its why singer is on to somehting, its why a Gt3 and Gt3 still exist with NA motor and even offer a stick..

 

I think it depends on the vintage.

driving a 50's era Ferrari is much more difficult and involving than a 60's era , vs. a 70's era etc... if you go from a 250 series car to a 458 - they only share the badge and name ... there is no comparison. if you go from a 308 to a 599 - massive improvement in speed and comfort but still some quirky things that you expect in a Ferrari. having been able to drive some of the earliest cars to the very latest ones, like all cars the newer cars are just easier to live with and drive faster... however, the limits are just that much higher. were I to have unlimited funds I'd have a 250 SWB, 275GTB, 330GTC, 512BBI, 288GTO, F-40, 599, 458, 488, Roma.... and love them all. you would not however want to drive the 250 that much other than on a sunny - cool day... or get caught in any traffic. same goes for all the cars except for the 330, 599,458 ,488... the other cars can do it, but the pleasure goes way down, as the work goes up. however for a mountain drive - 275, or BB or even the 288GTO would be great... on track - 250SWB and its modern equivalent 599... every day... 458 and 488. The F40 for private track time... and I'd park it in my living room. Ferrari's have all changed - and they are still special compared to "ordinary every day cars".... that is what you want.

 

In 3.5 years at Thermal, I’ve seen three Miatas, less than 1%.

 

Ok I thought of this post today.

I drove the Enzo three sessions this morning. Great car. Turns are nervous on acceleration as there are rudimentary nannies. High speed on straight (desert track - no runoff) 140-142.

Three sessions in afternoon 765 LT. Much faster. Better grip in turns. Torquey exit but less unnerving than Enzo. 152-154 on straight.

That straight speed is comparable to the fastest street cars made. I’ll do P1 tomorrow as a comparison test.

I don’t slap timers/transponders on every car as if it’s not a race car, the time is sort of, so what? But clearly the 765 was a much faster lap.

I love my Enzo, and the FXX even more, but that darn 765 is a heck of a street car on track.

 

Dale, most Series II 330 2+2 cars have air conditioning.

Matt

 

True. My GTC had one. It did a great job of cooling my right knee. [emoji1]


Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app

 

Yes, I think that the newer cars, with all of their electronics driver aids and power everything, have definitely lost something. True the newer cars and more refined and easier in many ways to drive but they have also lost that direct connection that you feel in the older cars.

 

The problem with the newer sports cars, not just Ferrari, is they are too good. You have to drive them at illegal speeds before they become engaging. This is why I think a “Dino” would be a major hit. Lightweight, 400 HP, great suspension, standard shift. Of course, I just described a Porsche GT4.


Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app

 

Would appreciate hearing which car puts the biggest smile on your face while driving it? Nothing like your experiences but I drove an R8, 911S, Gallardo and 458 on the track back to back and the 458 was clearly a level above the others as it did everything perfectly and was therefore the most gratifying to drive.

 

MMc is 50% miatas, bu then they have a race series too.