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HELP !!!! 348 wan't start

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by jkuk, Mar 27, 2004.

  1. jkuk

    jkuk Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    259
    Wirral, UK
    Full Name:
    John K
    I backed it out the garage this morning to check over rear brakes etc and now the car will not start.

    Starter motor turns engine,
    Initially car started and stay at idle then died.
    Managed to restart it but it would not idle, so revved at 2K till warm - it then died.

    Now it will not fire up at all, but splutters and dies.

    I have cleaned the thermo couple connectors, air mass flow connectors, the ones higher up from the air mass flow, the Motronic connectors, , in fact every connector I can see.

    I have also disconnected the battery and reconnected.

    Still no joy.

    Any ideas please...anyone

    John
     
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  3. CalGTS

    CalGTS Karting

    Jan 18, 2004
    137
    London, UK
    Full Name:
    Chris Leigh
    idle controve valve blocked with gunk?
     
  4. 92_348ts

    92_348ts Formula Junior

    Jun 6, 2002
    282
    Boise, Idaho
    Full Name:
    Chris
    John-Since your car has the Motronic 2.7 ignition (with the self diagnostic feature), I would place the ECU's into self diagnostic mode and see what kind of errors it shows.
     
  5. Dale

    Dale F1 Veteran

    Oct 7, 2003
    5,211
    uk
    Full Name:
    Dale Juan
    Check the basics first this is simple,
    1,are all four cams spining with starter cranking,
    2,have you got spark,
    3,have you got fuel pressure in the rails,
    4,check fuel injector is getting a signal,
    5,has the battery got enough kick to light all the above systems,

    cheers
    Dale.
     
  6. ShanB

    ShanB Formula Junior

    Jul 9, 2003
    547
    Tejas/Europe/Desert
    Full Name:
    shanb
    Like the gentlemen said, first check the big three:

    Air
    Fuel
    Spark

    Don't panic - it's usually something ridiculously simple. Rule out the simple things first, like a bad fuel pump relay, loose ignition wire or ground connection, etc. Check your WSM and your error codes. Let us know what you find.
     
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  8. jkuk

    jkuk Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    259
    Wirral, UK
    Full Name:
    John K
    Thanks guys,

    It must be something simple - just got to find it.

    The engine does try to start but won't kick in - like its running on one bank for a few seconds.

    The initial thing that got me a little concerned was that it ran perfectly,at start up this morning and then dropped to a splutter, like only one bank was firing, it then picked up after this but that as I said that was first thing this morning.

    It also had a full 18K service only 3 weeks ago and has been running perfect.

    How do I run the error codes on the clock display ?

    I did pull 2 ignition wires out of the top of the rubber housing to cyl 1 & 8, these have now been cleaned and re-inserted - still no joy.

    Does this cars have a starter swith in the engine bay. ?

    I've been on this for 2 hours with the usual fingers now cut to ribbons so I am signing out to worry all evening here in the UK.

    Thanks for any other suggestions offered, and its back to the diagnostics tomorrow.

    Any suggestions on how to check for a spark and power to the injectors ? I am not that knowledgeable with ignition systems

    Anything I need to check concerning air flow.

    Thanks again.

    John
     
  9. Noelrp

    Noelrp Formula Junior

    Aug 30, 2001
    630
    SSF
    Full Name:
    Noel
    There is a battery kill switch (it's in the front behind the left side headlamp area) but since you said that it cranks but no go, you might want to check the fuel pump, relay and/or fuse.

    Good luck
     
  10. jkuk

    jkuk Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    259
    Wirral, UK
    Full Name:
    John K
    Thanks guys,

    It must be something simple - just got to find it.

    The engine does try to start but won't kick in - like its running on one bank for a few seconds.

    The initial thing that got me a little concerned was that it ran perfectly,at start up this morning and then dropped to a splutter, like only one bank was firing, it then picked up after this but that as I said that was first thing this morning.

    It also had a full 18K service only 3 weeks ago and has been running perfect.

    How do I run the error codes on the clock display ?

    I did pull 2 ignition wires out of the top of the rubber housing to cyl 1 & 8, these have now been cleaned and re-inserted - still no joy.

    Does this cars have a starter swith in the engine bay. ?

    I've been on this for 2 hours with the usual fingers now cut to ribbons so I am signing out to worry all evening here in the UK.

    Thanks for any other suggestions offered, and its back to the diagnostics tomorrow.

    Any suggestions on how to check for a spark and power to the injectors ? I am not that knowledgeable with ignition systems

    Anything I need to check concerning air flow.

    Thanks again.

    John
     
  11. jkuk

    jkuk Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    259
    Wirral, UK
    Full Name:
    John K
    Ok, I am calmer now that I have had a glass of wine.

    Tomorrow, a check of power to fuel pumps, air valves etc.


    I seem to recall today knocking the cover in the passenger well which I now understand to be the internal fuse/relay board as I was fixing the radio/cd and also the passenger broken door handle - that's another story related to poor cable design of the door pull cable restraint.

    I will advise how I get on. I am still learning having only had the car a few weeks.

    thanks again

    John
     
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  13. davey_jones

    davey_jones Formula Junior

    Sep 28, 2002
    781
    wherever it's sunny
    Full Name:
    Dave
    When working on radio, which panels did you pull/remove?
     
  14. Miltonian

    Miltonian F1 Veteran

    Dec 11, 2002
    5,964
    Milton, Wash.
    Full Name:
    Jeff B.
    Just for giggles, pull one or two spark plugs and see if they are "wet fouled". It's possible that cleaning or replacing the plugs will give an instant cure. I've seen it numerous times.
     
  15. jkuk

    jkuk Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    259
    Wirral, UK
    Full Name:
    John K
    Ok, I am calmer now that I have had a glass of wine.

    Tomorrow, a check of power to fuel pumps, air valves etc.


    I seem to recall today knocking the cover in the passenger well which I now understand to be the internal fuse/relay board as I was fixing the radio/cd and also the passenger broken door handle - that's another story related to poor cable design of the door pull cable restraint.

    I will advise how I get on. I am still learning having only had the car a few weeks.

    thanks again

    John
     
  16. jkuk

    jkuk Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    259
    Wirral, UK
    Full Name:
    John K
    All fuses to fuel pumps are OK, but relays don't seem to switch in.

    Can anyone advise what I should be checking with regards to power to the fuel pumps when the ignition key is turned on.

    Should I hear the pumps turning ?

    Anyone got a wiring diagram as I do not have the WSM.

    I want to eliminate fuel, then move on to ignition.

    Thanks
     
  17. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Nov 19, 2001
    22,077
    The Brickyard
    Full Name:
    The Bad Guy
    Try unplugging the exhuast ecu's. It could be that they are going bad, and as a result they are sending the Motronic ecu's a signal to shut one of the banks down.
     
  18. jkuk

    jkuk Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    259
    Wirral, UK
    Full Name:
    John K
    Ernie,

    thanks for the tip - just tried it and no luck
     
  19. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Nov 19, 2001
    22,077
    The Brickyard
    Full Name:
    The Bad Guy
    Okay I think you need to check the connections. If you look on the back of the intake cam on bank 1-4, you will see a little connection. It is for the fuel timing. Make sure that it is clean and plugged in propperly. Next check to make sure that the fuel rail connections are fully connected. There are little clips just under were they connect to the injectors. All you have to do is push the clip in a pull. You will have to do two at a time. Pull up two on one side, then the other two. Have a look to see if they are clean. Then just clip them back on. Next have a look and the round connectors that are attached to the upper inside of the intake plenum. You can see then on either side of the oil filter. They screw on and off. Make sure they are fully screwed in. It is easier to see them with the aircleaner box off. Check to make sure that the throttle position sensors on the top of the throttle bodies are connected properly.
     
  20. jkuk

    jkuk Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    259
    Wirral, UK
    Full Name:
    John K
    ernie,

    still no joy after your suggestions.

    I don't understand why I can't see power to the pump relays.

    When removing the injector relays I can hear them clicking, but nothing with the fuel pumps - this may be normal of course.

    I could find no power to any of the pump contacts either. I would expect something at least on one of them

    despair is deepening.
     
  21. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Nov 19, 2001
    22,077
    The Brickyard
    Full Name:
    The Bad Guy
    Hummmmmm????????

    Have you looked to see that all your vacume lines are connected?
     
  22. 348uk

    348uk Karting

    Feb 1, 2004
    60
    UK
    Full Name:
    Andrew
    I've had running problems with mine recently after driving it for 5 minutes or so. It would start to lose power and then eventually cut out and prove very difficult to restart. I checked everything that I could, disconnected the battery to clear the ecu memories, pulled the plugs on the thermo couplings and cat ecus, still to no joy. I did find that when the running problem was evident that if I pulled the R/H fuel pump relay it made no difference to the running of the engine. The lefthand was fine. I let the car cool down again, started it up where it ran fine, pulled the R/H and L/H fuel pump relays and they both effected the running of the engine. Again when it had warmed up the R/H pump had cut.

    I couldn't get any further with this, but did find out that when the motronic ecu's want to shut a cylinder down, for what ever reason, it is the fuel circuit that is cut. The fact that you can't find any power to your pump relays could indicate that the ecu's have a power problem themselves or something is triggering them to cut the fuel system.

    As to mine, I gave up, it is now with the experts having a cambelt and 18k service, the running fault sorted out and a tubi sport pack fitted.

    Good luck !
     
  23. jkuk

    jkuk Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    259
    Wirral, UK
    Full Name:
    John K
    Ernie

    All vacuum pipes in place.

    Can anyone tell me what triggers the fuel pump relays.

    I can see 12v on pins 85 of the relay coil, with the ignition on but they are not switching in. Both Fuses are OK

    Is it Ok to hard wire the 12v across the contacts (I have 12v on pin 30 LH relay) & 12v on pin 87 RH relay)

    Or does anyone have the circuit diagrams to hand ?
     
  24. zan

    zan Formula Junior

    Nov 15, 2002
    537
    Boston
    Full Name:
    Mark M
    Are you checking pump power while cranking? The ECUs activate the pump relays, they will only be active while engine is cranking or running.
    Mark
     
  25. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Nov 19, 2001
    22,077
    The Brickyard
    Full Name:
    The Bad Guy
    Have a look at the crank position sensors. You can see them from under the car. They are located on the bottom and to the side of the crank pully. Have a look at those.

    If that doesn't do it I'm out of ideas.
     
  26. zan

    zan Formula Junior

    Nov 15, 2002
    537
    Boston
    Full Name:
    Mark M
    Have you checked each bank for spark?
    Mark
     
  27. jkuk

    jkuk Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    259
    Wirral, UK
    Full Name:
    John K
    Zan,

    No, I was not cranking when checking - I will try that.

    Ernie,

    I checked the crank sensors yesterday, as I was around that area trying to see if the a/c would cut in. - Thanks for your support.


    I am starting to think I will have to call in the local service guys.
     
  28. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Nov 19, 2001
    22,077
    The Brickyard
    Full Name:
    The Bad Guy
    Have you pulled any of the codes from the ecu?

    Keep us posted on what it turns out to be.
     

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