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Help with 812 brake pedal feel

Discussion in 'FF/Lusso/F12/812S' started by FCMD, Sep 14, 2020.

  1. FCMD

    FCMD Formula Junior
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    I already know the answer but need unbaised verfication before I talk with my service advisor.

    I just came back from COTA and hadn't driven my car in over a month as I needed to wait for service.

    I had new pads put in (bedded by the service advisor according to the manual) and a flush. Put the car in the trailer and went straight to COTA. But I noticed I still had a soft pedal with 1" or so of travel, unlike my GT3 RS pedal, which is rock solid firm top to bottom. Some of you may remember they forgot to reset the ABS in July after a flush and I had absolutely no pedal at all then.

    So please refresh my memory, how firm is the 812 brake pedal supposed to be? Any travel? I know, believe me I know, but since my SA specifically is the one who bedded in the pads..........

    ps 177 mph back straight first session- I know I could have broken 180 had I had any confidence at all...
     
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  3. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Rookie
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    The 812 does not have as firm a pedal as the GT3RS, but it should not be soft. A bit of initial travel, but not much.

    You might want to get it bled once more without an actual flush. Why not consider having a set of braided lines installed? Will make your brakes less mushy and more like your GT3RS brakes. I will never understand why Ferrari uses rubber lines for such a car. Additionally, braided PTFE lines will also keep moisture out of the fluid much better.

    Regarding bedding in. What exactly do you mean by "according to the manual? Don't recall the 812 having anything about bedding in.
    How was it bedded in? I know some service centres say you should just drive the car, but frankly that's a terrible way. Use the Pagid way. The compound is very similar to RSC1 pads.
     
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  4. FCMD

    FCMD Formula Junior
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    My Porsche guy ordered a case of Radi-Cal Race 2 fluid for my RS. I’ll probably put that in there.

    According to the SA he had to look it up- to bed in the pads you go from 70 mph to 30 twice then 70 to 15 twice then 70 to zero twice or four times........ (speeds I think are correct, I may be off on repetitions).

    ps The Corsa tires are really good- Cup 2 ish. Unlike those horrible P Zeros they handle pressure well. Only one bleed and maintained pressure the whole day, temps were good. The next day didn’t touch them at all, got up to pressure after first session and maintained pressure the entire second day.

    Novitec springs are fantastic! Actually could stand a little more stiffness (still a little roll) but the increase over OEMs completely removes any thought of understeer. 812 is able to keep up with RS’s on Cup 2s in the twisties and not lose ground with RS on slicks & set them up as sitting ducks on the straights.


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  5. wrs

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    177, man that makes me want to go but those tires you showed pictures of don't.......plus the fact that you had to replace the pads after one event.
     
  6. FCMD

    FCMD Formula Junior
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    #5 FCMD, Sep 14, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2020
    The launch you get on those little straights on the infield and the squeal of the tires going around the carousel are worth the price of admission.....

    Please don't look at my posts as a look at me sort of thing. There are far better drivers and racers here than I will ever be.

    It's not about me. I am just absolutely giddy about this car and its performance........ just unreal. <- and truly appreciated by the other enthusiasts at the track as well.
     
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  8. wrs

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    Oh I get you. I am sorely tempted to tear mine up too. I have had all my cars out there but not yet with the 812.
     
  9. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Rookie
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    That bed in procedure sounds really strange. For some reason I get the feeling that it is not a procedure from an 812 workshop manual, but rather something he came up with. Here's why.
    That procedure breaks the most important rule of bedding in - the cardinal sin. Never, and I mean, NEVER should you bring a car to a stop during bedding in. No manual anywhere from any brake manufacture would ever tell you to do that, ever.

    Aside from that, it is a very weak bed in you describe, hardly enough to seat the pads. Look at it this way. The T4300 compound is a close relative to the RSC1 compound and also developed by Pagid. It may say Brembo on the tin, but the only thing Brembo does, is mount a backing plate. This is relevant because this compound needs the same bed in procedure as the RSC1 compound. The bed in your guy used, lacks both speed and heat to work properly, it is not even close. Here is the RSC1 bed in procedure by comparison.

    15 gentle slow downs from 100 to 50 mph. No more than 25% brake should be applied, and accellerations between slow downs should be moderate. This step serves to mate the pads to the disc, and it gently heats up the system.

    The next step is the actual bedding in and gassing out.
    5-7 slow downs from 120 to 50 mph. You apply full brake without engaging the ABS. Accellerations between slow downs should be full throttle to lose as little heat as possible. This is the step that transfers pad material to the disc, burns off residue, and gasses out the pads. The friction created from the speed is a fairly intricate part of the final result. At this point you might think your car is on fire and wonder if you will choke. Bedding in stinks - literally
    As you can see, it is very different and a lot more intense so to speak, than the process you describe - and we're not done.

    Last step is this. After the high speed part, you let the car run for 5 minutes at 60 mph. This is to cool everything. Try not to apply any brake during this cool down.

    Then you finish off with 5 slow downs in the same way as the first 15. This is where you smooth out the pad material and clean up the pad and rotor.

    After this step, you GENTLY drive the car home and let it sit over night. This is where everything cures.

    As you can see, by comparison, the procedure your guy used, don't even put a scratch in the surface.

    If you wonder where to do this I would suggest an empty motorway sunday morning. This allows you to just run without stops and do everything in quick succession. You'll be surprised at how quickly how the high speed stops are done with. I mean, it sounds like it is impossible to do on public road, but if you think about it, going from 50 to 120 only takes a few seconds, and so does the slow downs. The risk of being clocked at 120 is minimal as you don't actually spend any real time at super illegal speeds. Just bring a friend whom can help you. He can call the speeds and you can focus on driving. If someone else is saying "break" and "go", then you can focus on what is in front and behind you. Easy.

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  10. FCMD

    FCMD Formula Junior
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    Thanks Anders. I live out in the country so I have the roads to properly bed in my pads. My GT3RS is getting new pads this week along with that Radi-Cal racing fluid. I'll just trailer it home and bed them myself before COTA next weekend. Thanks again your advice- it couldn't have come at a better time.

    The real irony in all of this is that the (Laferrari) brakes on the 812 give it a huge performance advantage over the F12. One of the F12's weaknesses is the end of straight 40m or so of braking distance advantage the lighter cars have. Between corner exit and the brake point, much of the top end advantage is lost in that car (and it just can't keep up in the turns like the 812 can).

    The Laferrari brakes on the 812 negated most of that disadvantage......(at least when the car was new!). The end of straight brake points were (initially) within 10m or so despite the 30 mph top end speed. The better tires should also have helped even lessen that distance. In the lesser straights (below 100 mph) you don't pay the weight penalty at all. The 812 can go as deep if not deeper than most other cars- the car literally leaps from corner to corner.

    I think the red herring in this fiasco is the ABS misstep- I think the OEM fluid is not up to snuff on track. As my Porsche guy said "You know. You just know if it doesn't feel right." And it doesn't and hasn't.
     
  11. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Rookie
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    You're welcome.

    The whole LaFerrari brake thing is a bit of a marketing thing really. The 812 share caliper style with the LaF and a few other cars, but it runs the same pads and discs as a Speciale, F8, 488, Pista and TdF. The F12 shares brakes with the FF and Lusso, and the whole system is just more targeted towards GT. But if you run say a 458 pad or RSC1 pad on an F12, it will be more or less the same as an 812, because they share disc type, but just run different pads.
    An F12 with RSC2 pads will brake harder and can run deeper than just about any road going Ferrari on stock brakes. A bit of a tangent, but just some info:) If you ever find yourself with an F12 that needs better braking power, just fit it with Pagid RSC1 or RSC2.

    Something seems really off with that whole ABS thing. Sounds like it caused air to be trapped in the system. A bleed should fix it. 1" of travel is more than normal.

    Are you planning on switching to the same fluid as in your GT3RS?
     
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  13. FCMD

    FCMD Formula Junior
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    Yes. My guy Chris spoke with the guy at AP racing before he ordered the case of racing brake fluid. Chris is a former racer and he was thoroughly impressed with the AP guy -he really knew his stuff, especially the specific needs of both cars. The fluid ordered will be a good starting point and as lap times lower they talked about where to go from there. The key question will be bleeding the ABS.
     
  14. Solid State

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    One thing to remember is these cars are not track cars and certainly not race cars. You get a bit spoiled when you start complaining about braking on an F12 if you drive public roads. Mine stop on a dime and give you back change. One thing Ferrari does not do is upgrade a model with better components during its life when another model come out at the same time. The F60 at many millions a piece has the exact same brakes as the F12B even when the Speciale had the next version at the same time.
     
  15. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Rookie
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    When going to a new fluid, you will need to cycle the ABS. For many, this means getting the dealer to do it the first time. Not seeing any issues with that though.

    Do you use your car for much else than track? Seeing that tracking is a big thing for you, why not run a better pad that will last a lot longer as well - not to mention a pad that is both cheaper but also offer far superior braking performance?
     
  16. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Rookie
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    This is not true. They went through four different brake rotors on the 458 as they had some wear issues trying to cut costs on OE disc manufacturing. Hell, on the Cali they had to do six different discs on the rear because of it. The F12 went through two different discs as well, First was the same as used on the FF and Lusso. Then they made a change to get it more performance oriented towards the end of production. The rotor used on the last F12's and what you get if you order an F12 rotor today, is basically the same rotor as on a 458, but with an F12 hat. The 812 and TdF got the same discs
    and pads as the 488, Pista and F8.

    This explains why we sometimes have different experiences. Some F12's have a set of brake rotors which are GT oriented, while others have the same as found on the models in the same era sport line of cars,i.e the 458.

    Part numbers for the old F12/Lusso and FF discs are. 315457 and 296894
    Part numbers for the new F12 discs are. 274334 and 278814
     
  17. Solid State

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    Was referring to the Special and LaF calipers with the built-in emergency brake. They came out while F12 was in production and it didn't get them. Neither did the mult-million dollar F60.
     

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