Help with value on Porsche race car

Discussion in 'Tracking & Driver Education' started by nathandarby67, Mar 6, 2017.

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  1. nathandarby67

    nathandarby67 F1 Veteran
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    #1 nathandarby67, Mar 6, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I am considering the purchase of the following car, and would love some input on what similar stuff is going for these days. Intention would be mostly for HPDE events, maybe some NASA type events. No concern with being competitive or winning anything. Just want to learn and take the next step from my Miata track car. Maaaaaybe eventualy do a WRL effort if the car would be acceptable to that body. From searching listings online there seems like a large spread, aside from obvious differences from car condition and prep level. I have not discussed a firm price yet, but wanted to have a rough idea what the ballpark even is before proceeding.

    Here is what I know:

    RSR body
    PCA logbook
    It's a 79 chassis w an 84 3.4L twin plug engine
    JE pistons
    Pauter rods
    JRZ coil overs
    Big Red brakes
    New MoTec ecu, dash, with new fuel injectors and custom wiring harness
    ATL fuel cell
    All lexan
    Halon fire suppression
    Driver seat + removable passenger seat
    Red top battery
    Harness/fuel cell have 2-3 years left
    Raced about 8 weekends a year for last 2 years. Private track club stuff.
    2 sets wheels/tires
    Do not know hours on engine but compression and leakdown are good, serviced by well respected Porsche race shop.
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  2. Entropy

    Entropy Formula 3
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    Jul 10, 2008
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    the nice thing about used race cars is they make the depreciation on an FF look spectacular (half kidding).

    This car resembles (closely!) my old Porsche race car....started out as a 76 930 tub, and in the end was a caged-out, plastic bodied, up-modified (every component) car. Fast as hell, challenging to drive and a lot of fun. Perhaps not the best developed or refined package though....(we referred to it as "Frankenstein", and when people asked what year it was, I had to respond "which particular part"?).

    FWIW, in 2010 I paid $50K for it with a really good 28' Classic trailer included. Swapped the trailer for something smaller, drove the car a LOT, serviced it perfectly, did a few enhancements (brakes/bias control, new ECU's, shifter), sold it on a few years ago for $50K. Had I had much more patience than I do, I probably could have gotten more, but the "used old modified Porsche race car market" is a bit variable; particularly with what you can get in a used race-spec Cayman.

    Wont' judge this car at all
     
  3. nathandarby67

    nathandarby67 F1 Veteran
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    Classic!

    Just like the old Johnny Cash song.
     
  4. carguyjohn350

    carguyjohn350 Formula 3
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    I was literally thinking the same thing. Excellent.

    For those who are nuts like us
    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GhnV-6lqH8[/ame]

    Sorry for being off topic.
     
  5. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob F1 World Champ
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    What is up with that cage? Looks like an off the shelf cage that is a bolt in that was modified to be a weld-in. That already is a negative to me. Then there are the unsupported pseudo NASCAR door bars which are the worst in safety design. At a minimum I would reinforce the psuedo bars and support them at the door sillplate. That means more welding and new paint. If you are not taking passengers you can leave the passenger bars alone and save yourself some money. NO race ready turnkey racecar is ever race ready!!! That is just life. That unicorn does not exist. Take it from a long time racer.
     
  6. nathandarby67

    nathandarby67 F1 Veteran
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    Good observations. He said the cage was to PCA specs, but I'm not sure what specs and as of what date. I also noticed what looked like bolted connections that were then welded. I will find out more history/details on it. When you say to reinforce the NASCAR bars, do you mean with connections like I have drawn in red? That is how I have typically seen them done. Our Miata chump car has three drivers side door bars and two passenger side (although no ability to install passenger seat in that car).

    Also, what are your thoughts on the short sections where the tubing is a larger diameter? Almost looks like a coupling or something that was welded in. Is that an acceptable thing to do?

    I'm very conscious of safety stuff when it comes to any track time, I'd rather spend money to make the car safer 10 times over before spending any making it faster.

    Edit: pics below...
     
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  8. nathandarby67

    nathandarby67 F1 Veteran
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    #7 nathandarby67, Mar 6, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  9. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob F1 World Champ
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    #8 fatbillybob, Mar 6, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I would add your red bars plus these pink bars supported to the sill plate with white outlined square plates welded to the sill. You want the square sill plate supported to be bent 90 degrees so they are on the sill plate and on the vertical wall of the sill too for best support. It looks to me that the collar big tubes are slide and bolt as part of a bolt in cage. That set-up of welding to convert a bolt-in cage to weld-in is legal for SCCA I'm pretty sure but I would have to read the rules. However I think the sleeves as they sit are not SCCA legal. I think you can sleeve tube for example when doing crash repair but you have to rossette weld in addition to welding around the big and small tube junction. The rosettes would need to be 6 places equidistant over a joint not a bolted in welded over bolt.

    So I would say to the OP. What do you want to graduate to? HPDE buy anything and any cage is mostly better than none for HPDE. If you want to race SCCA then look at their rule book. Google SCCA GCR and start reading for a possible class and rules for cage construction. If you got questions I can probably help a bit. If a car is SCCA legal is usually meets NASA too. SCCA is just a bit tougher in standards than NASA. NASA has a good HPDE competition program and racing. Bigger dogs still race SCCA. If you want to race PCA or POC then read those CGR's. If you already have a PCA logboog but it's cage standards were lower at that time can you still get a new POC logbook or SCCA logbook? Many organizations allow crossing over with less headaches if there is an existing logbook. If you have no logbook and start fresh you need to meet today's standard as a new racecar build.
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  10. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob F1 World Champ
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    The 3 bar nascar bar can be unsupported and often is because of rules. Many rulesets limit the number of cage attachment points often 6 or 8. If you weld to the sill plate you just added 3 connection points. Under your conditions in a 3 bar doorbar the lowest bar is call a sill tube. It is welded near the sill of the car in an area that is typically below the bumper impact zone of another car hitting you. So the two upper bars are really the nascar support protecting you and the 3rd lowest sill tube supports those upper bars.

    If you are really into safety full containment seats are what you want if you can fit them in a spec miata. In chump you got guys out there in 3500lb volvos and you got a 2200lb miata. At least in SM everyone is the same size.
     
  11. loflyer47

    loflyer47 Formula Junior
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    Car is just a bitsa car.....just track car that you pay penny's on the dollar from the actual car...a great toy for track days...nothing more... Pay what you fell in resonanable with the ideal that what ever you pay....it's strictly for for..... My,opinion.... 25k/ 35k range...good luck... And just my 2. Cents ....
     
  12. nathandarby67

    nathandarby67 F1 Veteran
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    This is pretty much what I have been thinking. I like the idea that it's a little of this and a little of that. Therefore it's something that can be used as strictly a tool to go have fun, without worrying about damaging a more original, valuable car.
     
  13. bpu699

    bpu699 F1 Veteran
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    Maybe 30-35k$

    I might end up getting a dedicated track car. Right now have a 930 with a bunch of safety equipment added. I know it's no longer a virgin now... But there will always be a buyer for a 930 I figure.

    If you ever plan to sell, get something that fits a race class. Spec boxsters seem to be $35k to $50k...

    Gutted 996 for track work, but no race class, about $25k...

    What seems like the best deal for a car to beat on, is a spec 944... Maybe $15k... Not fast, but cheap. And I do see them run in the fast groups...

    eBay seems to have tons of cool, cheap, race cars...
     
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  15. nathandarby67

    nathandarby67 F1 Veteran
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    Yes! How freaking cool is this?!?

    Formula Mazda Race Car, FM, John Player Special | eBay

    Long term I'd love to have a formula car of some sort, although honestly would prefer Formula Ford or similar with no downforce. I also like the idea of vintage racing in general, so could get two birds with one stone with FF. I'm afraid I may not fit though, at about 6'1", 230 and broad shoulders.

    More on topic, here is a similar vintage 911.

    1981 PORSCHE 911 SC RACE CAR | eBay
     
  16. bpu699

    bpu699 F1 Veteran
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    I have seen used Indy cars for $40k...

    Safe? Probably not...

    Practical? Hell no...

    Lots of places to run it? No...


    But how cool would it be to have one in the garage?

    Drool...
     
  17. dmundy

    dmundy Formula Junior
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    Sep 11, 2010
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    IMO the original FM's are not safe. They are formula contintal fast, with a formula vee cage. Very bad combo.
     
  18. 3604u

    3604u F1 Veteran
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    If you buy , and are selling parts .
    I am keen on the dash and Motec ecu ��.

    Car looks good . Maybe get another roll cage
     
  19. ProCoach

    ProCoach F1 Veteran
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    The MXL2 is a great dash/logger.
     
  20. innerloop

    innerloop Karting

    Jan 17, 2010
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    #18 innerloop, Mar 7, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    It's pretty cool. Mine's only a roller, but the steering works and people like to sit in it and have their picture taken.
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  21. ktr6

    ktr6 Formula Junior
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    I would say mid thirties for price. If you have the pcar bug and can swing it you may want to look for a 996 cup car or a retired Conti race car. From what I have seen in the market they tend to hold their resale value, have excellent safety equipment, are pretty reliable and can be run in multiple series if you decide to race.
     
  22. ProCoach

    ProCoach F1 Veteran
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    Agreed. 996 Cup is the deal right now. Also, the 997 GS Conti cars, built by a pro team like the ex-RumBum car, would be awesome.
     
  23. bpu699

    bpu699 F1 Veteran
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    Put in any motor and have fun...

    Even a cheap v8 or motorcycle engine and that thing would be a hoot...
     
  24. LightGuy

    LightGuy Two Time F1 World Champ
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    There should be a universal rule for side/bottom intrusion resistance vis carbon fibre or Kevlar panels. Hell stainless would be a vast improvement.

    Make it all tube frame formula cars.
     
  25. disastermand

    disastermand Rookie

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    #23 disastermand, Apr 19, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    That cage is a scary mess. The driver side post is a leg breaker on drivers side impact, the hoop does not appear to have the necessary vertical support and the NASCAR bars have a number of issues. Surprised that cage passed an inspection.

    Further, SCCA and NASA or PCA inspections are only as good as the inspector. Your likely to find the better inspectors at the bigger regional events/qualifiers.

    That car looks pretty on the outside but questionably put to together.
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  26. gw32

    gw32 Rookie

    Apr 6, 2017
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    I just traded my 911 race car for a Scuderia. I had the car built in 2008 from a '92 964 chassis with 993 3.6L motor, 6 speed trans. and running gear. 325HP on 2,100 lbs. Fully race car prepped for PCA GT3 class. Lots of race gear: cage connected to shock towers, fire suppression system, fuel cell, adjustable shocks & sway bars, Motorola radio, cools shirt, etc. Car was very fast. PCA Zone 7 & NASA PRC champ several times and 2nd place PCA nationally once. Low hrs on motor and trans. Recently rebuilt wheels, axles and shocks. Cost over $150K to build. Professionally maintained and track supported.

    I got $50K as trade value. Race cars are extremely hard to sell. The range for 911 non-factory race cars is in the $25-$70K range. Without knowing more about hrs. on eng, trans, etc. I'd say it would sell at the low end of the range. You could easily spend $15K-25K on 1st yr. issues.
     
  27. Whisky

    Whisky F1 World Champ
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    I have seen roll cages made out of bent exhaust pipes...
     

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