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Hyperflow cat for 360 = increase mid range torque?

Discussion in '360/430' started by Argento6spd360modena, Jan 10, 2010.

  1. Argento6spd360modena

    Argento6spd360modena Formula Junior

    Nov 20, 2009
    309
    I would love to get some feedbacks from those who had experience with Hyperflow or another other type of high flow cats on 360 Modena. Do you guys actually felt noticeable gain?

    Are there any difference between Hyperflow, Fabspeed, and Kinetic Racing high flow cats?

    I love the car so far, but I just wish a little bit more mid range torque and a little bit more kick up top. Another 20hp/20lb-ft of torque would make the car so much more complete.
     
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  3. CeM355

    CeM355 Rookie

    Oct 29, 2008
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    I'm using Hyperflow cats and happy with them so far.I'm not sure about 20 hp increase but you feel the difference in mid range torque.Better gas response as well.
     
  4. campbell360

    campbell360 Formula Junior
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    Oct 15, 2009
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    I have the Hyper-flows and a X-Ost system as well. I definately believe the hp increase as well as a light more free flowing system. I read somewhere along the line a 25-ish boost with both pieces installed. Definately a Hyper-flow fan.
     
  5. shawsan

    shawsan Formula 3

    Jul 2, 2004
    1,090
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    As you may know, there's only one manufacturer's dyno that's available on sports cats and its for hyperflows on a challenge stradale. Claims 37 HP increase and about 30 ft/lbs of torque, presuming you have BMC filters as well. But as much as you want to convince yourself of a seat-of-the-pants effect (as justification your expenditure was worthwhile), you'll be hard pressed to confirm any power increase anywhere. But there are 2 certainties: its louder and shaves 19lbs off stock weight.
     
  6. Argento6spd360modena

    Argento6spd360modena Formula Junior

    Nov 20, 2009
    309
    Thanks guys for the responds.

    I am just debating if it is worth dropping $3k for the Hyperflow. I am hoping to have it installed during annual service coming up soon. I installed drop in filter and Timate Titanium exhaust recently. I am looking for a little bit more improvement in mid range.

    My biggest complaint about the car is that the speed in 360 is very deceiving, the car is quicker than it "feels".
     
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  8. Ingpr

    Ingpr F1 Rookie

    Jun 30, 2009
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    I recently install fabspeed test pipes to my 360 and Maxspeed exhaust system. The cars sounds great and you will feel a gain in horse power and torque at mid. What I don’t really like is when you start the car at cold it sound kind of bad and the resonance is to high. But you really will love the sound from 3rd gear thought 5th, amazing sound and you will see every body on the highway looking thought their mirrors to see WTF is coming!!!
     
  9. hifipj

    hifipj Formula Junior

    Sep 26, 2009
    402
    #7 hifipj, Jan 11, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2010
    I got the Kinetix cats (do a search on Kinetix and you'll find their site) and have been VERY satisfied with them. Lighter, nice sound with my Tubi, and much less expensive than Hyperflow or others. In fact, looking at photos of both the designs look very similar. To me, doing the cats was worth $1500, but not $3k or more. BTW, before doing the cats check with your dealer or installer for a labor estimate - I had it done for the fair and honest rate of 3 hours labor by Andy Falbo at FMS - but some dealers quoted up to $1500 for installation. Crazy! Let's see, $3k if you get Hyperflows, plus 1500 to install - $4500 to do cats! No, thanks, for a noticeable - but truthfully incremental - improvement.

    Only slight negative - there is a resonant mode around 2600-2700RPM (esp. in 3rd gear) that to my ears is annoying, kind of like a buzzing bee. Don't know if it's due solely to the cats, but it's more likely the combination of cats with my Tubi. But below that, and esp. above that, it sounds FANTASTIC. Recently took the car thru some tunnels in the California mountains, and the sound revving to 8500 in each gear was incredible. Made a video of it, will have to post it.
     
  10. Ingpr

    Ingpr F1 Rookie

    Jun 30, 2009
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    Save some money and have some some fun and install the cats by yourself. If you have some skills you can do it. You need to take out the bumper, underbody, exhaust, sensors and the old cats. Here are threads of almost every steps.
     
  11. kopiokosong

    kopiokosong Formula 3

    Sep 25, 2009
    2,376
    i have a euro 360 cs with tubi ngt n just installed kinetix sports cats. love 'em - power thru mid n high is pronouncedly increased- car is smoother lighter n faster inuptake n has an aggressive edgier tone.never tried hyperflow, fabspeed or tubii but kinetix is significantly cheaper n 180 cell is one of the lowest i think, my friend has also just installed kinetix on his euro 360, same positive result. does anyone hv any view on headers for 360cs? is it worth changing to fabspeed or agency power or does 360euro cs headers not hv precat so no point changing?
     
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  13. scoper

    scoper Karting

    Sep 23, 2007
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    I put hyerflow cats and a Tubi on my 360. Love the combination but would also be aware that most people recommend you reflash the ECU to realize the hoped for gains in HP/torque and avoid the check engine light. I did and am happy with the results
     
  14. RayJohns

    RayJohns F1 Veteran
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    I had hyper flow cats on my 360 (along with a tubi exhaust). It's difficult to tell if there is an increase in power by the seat of your pants. This is because the increase mainly comes in the mid range. So, since the car is already moving, it's difficult to feel the additional HP up high. It's generally easier to tell when there is more torque added in the lower RPM range, as opposed to more HP added near the mid-range or top end.

    When I spoke with Hyperflow, they said a customer had dyno tested their product and I think it added about 20 HP or so. I don't recall the exact figures now. You should give hyperflow a call directly and speak with them. They are very knowledgeable. Just keep in mind the figures are typically peak HP figures. I think hyperflow may have a dyno chart on their website, but I'm not sure.

    Keep in mind, the Hyperflow cats also shave some weight off the car. If you look back through some of my older posts, I posted the exact weight savings with the hyperflow cats and Tubi. I believe it was a pretty noticeable difference in weight - and it's near the back of the car, so that helps more with handling as well.

    The hyperflow cats are very well made and the company was a pleasure to deal with. They are really beautiful looking and the polish on them is outstanding. I can highly recommend them.

    Ray
     
  15. RayJohns

    RayJohns F1 Veteran
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    I installed mine myself. The job is a little tricky, but nothing too bad. Obtaining the proper exhaust sealing between the hyperflow and the inlet of the tubi can be a bit tricky.

    Ray
     
  16. hardtop

    hardtop F1 World Champ

    Jan 31, 2002
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    Anyone who believes Ferrari left 20-30HP on the shelf that could be had just by changing cats is deluding themselves. Go to a dyno shop for install and check before and after on the same day. I'm betting a big disappointment.

    Dave
     
  17. RayJohns

    RayJohns F1 Veteran
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    Here's their dyno chart

    http://www.hyper-flow.com/dyno_tests.htm

    Personally, after having actually installed the cats and comparing the Ferrari OEM cats with the hyper flow cats, I don't think a 4 or 5 percent increase in power by freeing up the exhaust flow is all that unbelievable.

    So, before you start suggesting that people are deluding themselves, you might want to keep in mind that Ferrari isn't able to just roll off whatever they want as far as exhaust systems. Their hands are tied to a large degree by the EPA, DOT, etc, etc.

    I'll buy your argument a little more if you can produce a dyno chart showing no change in HP and torque after installing a tubi and hyper flow cats. Otherwise, it just sounds like speculation without any real basis in fact to me.

    Ray
     
  18. RayJohns

    RayJohns F1 Veteran
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    I don't believe any modifications to the ECU eprom/rom, etc. would be required unless you intend on changing the fuel you are using. The factory ECU will adjust the fuel input based on the O2 readings from the exhaust system. If you install a more free flowing exhaust and just reset the ECU by clearing the power, the car should relearn everything based on the new exhaust/intake. The only time you are going to really realize any gains from a modified advance curve in the ECU is if you are able to run higher octane gas. However, in the US, that is so limited that I think spending thousands of dollars to reflash the ECU is probably largely a waste of money.

    Just increasing the exhaust flow would only require the ECU to adjust the air/fuel mixture. Any changes to the advance curve, ignition timing, etc. would be mainly a function of octane and where detonation occurs, etc.

    Ray
     
  19. Ingpr

    Ingpr F1 Rookie

    Jun 30, 2009
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    So, before you start suggesting that people are deluding themselves, you might want to keep in mind that Ferrari isn't able to just roll off whatever they want as far as exhaust systems. Their hands are tied to a large degree by the EPA, DOT, etc, etc.

    I'll buy your argument a little more if you can produce a dyno chart showing no change in HP and torque after installing a tubi and hyper flow cats. Otherwise, it just sounds like speculation without any real basis in fact to me.

    Ray[/QUOTE]

    Well said Ray! +9
     
  20. hardtop

    hardtop F1 World Champ

    Jan 31, 2002
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    I stand by my statement. Do as I suggested and get back to me. If you want to go by the manufacturers' claims, fine. It's your money.

    Dave
     
  21. kopiokosong

    kopiokosong Formula 3

    Sep 25, 2009
    2,376
    having installed kinetix sports cats, i can personally vouch for the fact that the car breathes lighter n there is a marked feel at least of improvement on the uptake esp in mid n hi. physically the stock cats are heavy n cumbersome compared to the sports cats n the 180-200 cell vs 400 cell surely makes a difference. there is also less heat generated. ferrari as others hv said are constrained by various regulations of course, owise the car wld b straight thru if max power was the sole consideration. my own view is go for the cats n experience for yourself- my guess is you wont regret it. n the better sound is a bonus
     
  22. RayJohns

    RayJohns F1 Veteran
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    Your statement seems somewhat foundationless to me. You are merely suggesting that "Ferrari wouldn't leave HP on the table", therefore that makes the link to the dyno chart posted above invalid. In other words, "yes, a Ferrari was dyno tested and a HP gain was shown with hyperflow cats" but never mind that; it can't be true because Ferrari would never send their motor out of the factory with anything less than absolute max HP.

    I bet if Ferrari wanted to ignore all emissions regulations and wind the 360 motor up as far as it would go, they could probably produce north of 400 HP - however, it would be at the expense of the motor's life, emissions, etc, etc.

    Take the 458 for example. Its 4.58 liter motor produces 562 HP in factory trim. That's 122.7 HP per liter. If a 360 made 122 HP per liter, it should have 441 HP, instead of 400 HP. Even the 430 made more HP/Liter than the 360.

    Ferrari has to engineer their exhaust system (specifically their pre-cats in the headers, as well as their main cats) to meet ever stricter EPA regulations in the US and specifically CA (i.e. 50 state legal)).

    Anyone who has experience with building an tuning motors can tell you that a motor is basically an air pump and that HP and torque are both tied very closely to exhaust tuning as well as opening up air intake and exit. Installing a lower cell count cat, as well as a less restrictive exhaust (e.g. tubi) will increase HP. I think a 20 HP increase is probably about right. The 360 makes about 400 HP stock. So you are talking about roughly a 5% increase.

    If you take a second and look at the company's dyno chart, it's pretty clear that the installation of their product has increased power across the power band of the motor.

    Just saying "Ferrari wouldn't leave 20 HP on the table" is a non-sense argument. Ferrari's hands are likely tied by emission requirements, just like Yamaha is on their motorcycles, etc. If you look at the evolution of a motorcycle like the R1, Yamaha is constantly dealing with US and Euro regulations that limit HP.

    Bumping a motor that spins at nearly 9000 RPM from 400 HP to 420 HP by lowering back pressure isn't exactly some mind boggling feat. More air out equals more air in. More air in allows more fuel to be added while maintaining the same air/fuel ratio. More fuel compressed and ignited equals more power.

    Anyway, it's all speculation on both sides. I think, however, the dyno chart posted by hyperflow speaks volumes. In all of this, it's really the only thing - aside from logic - that backs up a HP gain.

    Until you provide some dyno chart showing that installing a more free flowing exhaust on the 360 doesn't increase HP, then I take hyperflow's data at face value. I've dealt with the owner of Hyperflow personally and he comes across as a straight shooter and an honest business man. I doubt he would post data on their website that was half assed or questionable.

    Ray
     
  23. Derek Trotter

    Derek Trotter Formula 3
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    #20 Derek Trotter, Jan 15, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2010
    As Ray states, Ferrari, along with every other manufacturer's hands are tied to comply with local reg's etc. It's the aftermarket manufacturers who can (legally) tweak a little more from the stock setup.

    The 360 hasn't a very torquey engine anyway, revvy/peaky yes, but torquey, no. If you crave torque, by a Turbo car.
     
  24. RayJohns

    RayJohns F1 Veteran
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    #21 RayJohns, Jan 15, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2010
    Forced induction is a beautiful thing :)

    A lot of people don't realize that the additional pressure applied on the piston during the induction stroke comes with a very favorable rod to crankshaft journal leverage angle and this results in a lot of additional torque being present that isn't available from a N/A motor.

    Ray
     
  25. Ingpr

    Ingpr F1 Rookie

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    #22 Ingpr, Jan 15, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2010
    Just the common sense tells you that the cats will deliver more breathing to the engine, you are reducing the heat in the engine bay and you are saving some weight. Something good has to come out from that upgrade.

    In my case I have test pipes because here I don’t get to much crap from the cops. I feel some increment of power at mid range and the engine feels smoother. I really notice how fast the engine bay cools down after any trip a made. At first you can see the hot vapors coming out of the engine bonnet louvers for maybe 15 minutes, now I was watching very carefully and I notice that it cools downs in five minutes.

    I think that this will help others parts to last a little longer specially the rubber made parts.

    Just my two cents.
     
  26. RC33

    RC33 Formula Junior

    Nov 29, 2005
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    How many cells are there in the OEM cats?
     
  27. Ingpr

    Ingpr F1 Rookie

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    I'm not sure but you should check a thread posted by Trev. He put a lot of value information about the exhaust system. The thread is about upgrade a manual Modena to a CS.
     
  28. kopiokosong

    kopiokosong Formula 3

    Sep 25, 2009
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    i believe its 400
     

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