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I need 355 C Pagid Blues or Gray Ceramic!

Discussion in '348/355' started by rob lay, Dec 1, 2003.

  1. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    Dec 1, 2000
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    I was unable to locate any the past couple weeks through usual contacts. Does anyone have any they can sell me and overnight this week? I leave for a track day Friday, so I would need them by Thursday. If you do have some available, please let me know the price. Thanks.
     
  2. maranelloman

    maranelloman Guest

    Rob, try Cobalt Friction Spec VR race pads. Better than Pagid, IMO, and less expensive & last longer.
     
  3. Schatten

    Schatten F1 World Champ
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    Apr 3, 2001
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    if you want to stick with the pagid's other than the cobalts, you can try Scott & Bob at King Motorsports: www.kingmotorsports.com - they carry Pagids and *might* have them. Give ema a ring and see if they can help you out: (262) 593-2800.
     
  4. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    King didn't have anything in stock, but thanks Randy.

    I was looking for Pagids, but would also accept Pf's too.

    I guess today would be the last day I could get them ordered and shipped, so if anyone has any leads of any instock somewhere, please let me know.

    Thanks,
    rob
     
  5. Schatten

    Schatten F1 World Champ
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    Porterfield R4's FRP302 for the front and rear
    Porterfield R4E's FRP302 for the front and rear

    Same price for each of the sets. If you need them by the end of the week I can second day air them and have them out today if you'd like. Because of the weight of the pads, second day shipping would eat up discounts. Drop me a note on the details.
     
  6. Schatten

    Schatten F1 World Champ
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    er... were you referring to performance friction? if so.. let me know which compound.
     
  7. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    I think Jon recomended PF 93 or 97, I want whichever one is softer. Do they have that in a 355 Challenge size? What would the price be?
     
  8. Schatten

    Schatten F1 World Champ
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    93's will be softer.
    Wendy at Porterfield couldn't find the right pad, nor could anyone over at PF. If you know the part # or spec that they need, let me know. It *might* be the same pad as the Porsche guys use which is the 345 - that's according to Wendy.

    I'll drop Rob S. a note to get the details.
     
  9. Schatten

    Schatten F1 World Champ
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    actually since I have the part # for the Portefields I can get the PF's, no problem without the part #. so long as I have the dimensions from the Porterfields. Anyways, let me know how many sets, where to ship them to, etc.
     
  10. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    I need a set for the fronts and backs. Let me know the price first. I would need them here by Thursday or you can ship them to the Manor House if Thursday is too early. My address is...

    Rob Lay
    1150 N. White Chapel
    Southlake, TX 76092
     
  11. rexrcr

    rexrcr Formula 3

    Nov 27, 2002
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    Hi Guys, on the road this week...(got your email Randy)

    Don't have specific part numbers on me.

    Call John Ruther at Northstar Motorsports, (800) 356-2080
    28144 W. Industrial Ave. Suite 108
    Barrington, IL 60010
    http://www.northstarmotorsports.com

    He used to stock the Pagid's for me.

    Otherwise BT of America is the main importer for Pagid, don't have that number, it's in Racecar Engineering magazine though.

    No more time now... sorry


    Rob
     
  12. Schatten

    Schatten F1 World Champ
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    Rob, I can second day them. But check with Northstar to see if they have the Pagids in stock.
     
  13. Schatten

    Schatten F1 World Champ
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    Called up Northstar, here's what they got:
    44's and 14's. The 44's are the orange. The 14's are the black's. The blacks are a bit more aggressive and get a lot hotter. She said to use these if you have slots to help with the cooling. But the oranges, she said are a basic Pagid pad that is very popular among DE events.

    The kicker - $215 a set - same price and pad for the F/R. (typical pagid price actually)

    The Porterfields are a hundred off of that price for each set (estimate until I can come up with the exact pad you need).

    I'll let you know soon enough but if you go ahead with the pagid's, let me know.
    _____

    edit: more info on the pads from Pagidusa.com
    RS 14 –BLACK
    This is a high friction value ceramic type compound with very good modulation, high fade resistance, low heat conductivity, and a good wear rate up to a temperature of 650°C (1.200°F). It is kind on discs, with visible grooving, but a limitation of hairline cracks.

    Applications: NASCAR, CART, F3, Touring-Cars, GT cars, WSC, Trans Am and Rallye.


    RS 4-4 –ORANGE
    This compound has a very good fade resistance and a higher average friction value than the RS 4-2. It is rotor friendly with a predictable, non-aggressive friction behavior (stable torque). Fading resistance up to 560°C (1.050°F). It is a very good rear compound for Touring Car applications in combination with RS 14 front pads. It’s main application is Porsche 911 racing. It is used on either Short Track or Long Distance; also for front and rear axles. It is also used on BMW Showroom Stock, all other Touring-Cars and Single- Seater up to F3.
     
  14. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    I'm on the phone right now, do the rear and fronts run the exact same pad?
     
  15. Schatten

    Schatten F1 World Champ
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    yeup. according to all my notes, its the same pad on the 355c.
     
  16. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    I guess prices went up the last five minutes, I got two sets of the Oranges at $230 each. :) I might shop around next time, I'm just desperate at this point though.

    John said the Oranges have replaced the Blues for the most part. The Oranges have a better high end heat range with only about 5% additional wear on the rotor.

    Thanks for everyone's help, I'm usually pretty good about planning ahead of time, but have been busy and just signed up for the event itself.
     
  17. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    Ohh, forgot, for future reference, the Pagid Part number is #1674. It's a common part number for the rear of many Porsches, so they should always be easy to find.
     
  18. rexrcr

    rexrcr Formula 3

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    I know it's been a while since I posted on the various Pagid compounds, and you may not want to hear this...

    Unless Pagid has changed the formula for R4-4 orange, it's too soft. A lot of guys like this pad 'cause it's initial bite is good, which really means it's formulated for a bit lower temperatures. We used to toast this compound on 348 (thinner pad, I know) in 15 minutes. You may see tons of dust on the car with this pad as evidence of it's temperature range. This is why DE guys like this pad: they're not hard-core racers and this feels more familiar, less pedal pressure required.

    R4-2, blue, is a great pad. This is the original 355 Challenge pad, and it works well in both front and rear. It's also OE on F40.

    Ceramic is an improvement over R4-2, and can take high temperatures. I like this too.

    There's some semantic issues in one of the above posts. A brake pad does not create heat, or run hotter than another at the same rate of deceleration. You're turning kinetic energy into heat when braking. You want to decelerate as quickly as possible. The mass of the car is known. The mass of the brake rotors is known. The frictional characteristics of the pads is known. The avialable brake torque can be calculated. This information (and a little bit more) gives you the temperature rise of the brake rotors, and in turn the rest of the brake system. The only way to run "cooler" is to use the brakes less, which means longer lap times, and that's contradictory to what you want to do.

    Therefore: you need a pad with very high heat capacity. One formulated to continue to work at 1100+ degrees F. Which means a pad with a "high" temperature rating. This property of the pad does not mean the pad will run "hotter" than a pad with a lower (> 1000 deg F) temperature rating, unless you brake with less deceleration rate.

    Bottom line, a pad with higher temperature rating, "hard" compound, will yield faster lap times and last longer than a pad with a lower temperature rating 'cause you're gonna exceed 1000 degF every time you brake hard.

    Used to be, 10+ years ago, that the savvy racers only ran Ferrodo DS11, their "hardest" pad. A characteristic of this pad was it required a hard push on the brake pedal and some heat before it worked well, and less experienced racers didn't like that, it was percieved as unfriendly. So they ran soft compounds, had less braking capabilities, pads changed more frequently, etc.

    Anyway.

    This pad is quite common to other calipers ("302" pat number rings a big bell in my head now), not unique to Brembo. Comes in different thicknesses on the same backing plate, so I'm kinda surprized at availability issues with different manufacturers (especially Performance Friction, which I love too).



    Rob Schermerhorn
     
  19. rexrcr

    rexrcr Formula 3

    Nov 27, 2002
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    Are you certain you told them Challenge, not stock? Stock 355/348 pad is common to OE Porsche. Challenge is much larger pad.

    Trace a backing plate, put dimmensions on for overall width and height, and fax it with the thickness information.
     
  20. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    Well, he did say rear of racing Porsches, if that means anything. I'll find out if it's right after I get it, I'll simply send it back for the correct one if not.

    I'm not sure if the Blues are even produced anymore, from what he told me Pagid is telling all that use to use Blues to use Oranges.

    I'm afraid the Blacks would hurt the rotors too much, I would rather go through pads than rotors.

    Is the 650°C (1.200°F) of the Blacks vs. the 560°C (1.050°F) of the Oranges that big of difference? John actually said the Oranges have the same low temp of the Blues, but a higher top temp than the Blues. I think this sounds better from your previous post. Maybe the Orange compound has changed over the years?

    I know how the Blues feel, I know how they've treated the rotors, and I know how fast they wear. I'll find out soon enough the Oranges and can adjust next time around to what I like. I hope they don't turn to dust as you say Rob, that's expensive dust.
     
  21. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    Rob S., let me know what you think about this info on the Blue, Orange, and Black compounds from Pagid...

    RS 4-2-1 –BLACK
    A high performance compound with low fading characteristics and high cold friction. It is the most comfortable medium friction sport compound. Rotor friendly and OE on various Ferrari, Lamborgini, Lotus, Bugatti and Corvette (Callaway) models. Suitable for street and light track use.

    RS 4-2 –BLUE
    A medium friction racing compound with good cold friction and fading resistance up to 500°C ( 930°F).
    The 4-2 compound has an acceptable rotor wear rate and a very good modulation (adjustment). It is a Classic Rallye compound and is used also for small Single-Seater ( F3, F-Ford, Club Racing and Showroom Stock).


    RS 4-4 –ORANGE
    This compound has a very good fade resistance and a higher average friction value than the RS 4-2. It is rotor friendly with a predictable, non-aggressive friction behavior (stable torque). Fading resistance up to 560°C (1.050°F). It is a very good rear compound for Touring Car applications in combination with RS 14 front pads. It’s main application is Porsche 911 racing. It is used on either Short Track or Long Distance; also for front and rear axles. It is also used on BMW Showroom Stock, all other Touring-Cars and Single- Seater up to F3.

    RS 7 – BLACK
    This is a low friction rear axle racing compound especially developed for front wheel driven cars.


    RS 14 –BLACK

    This is a high friction value ceramic type compound with very good modulation, high fade resistance, low heat conductivity, and a good wear rate up to a temperature of 650°C (1.200°F). It is kind on discs, with visible grooving, but a limitation of hairline cracks.

    Applications: NASCAR, CART, F3, Touring-Cars, GT cars, WSC, Trans Am and Rallye.

    RS 15 – Grey
    Very high torque compound. It combines a 20% higher friction value than the RS14 with a slightly increased pad wear. Needs finesse to avoid over braking the car. Good release characteristic and a quick bedding in procedure.

    Although the “RS15” has very good modulation it might have an excessive bite for some applications.

    RS 19 – YELLOW

    Best compound for endurance racing on the basis of the RS 14. A slight reduction of the friction value improves the modulation. Nevertheless, the friction value is enough for cars without power-assisted brake system and ensures comfortable low effort on the brake pedal. Constant temperatures up to 600°C (1.100°F) are possible. The combination of friction value, fading stability and low wear rates on pads and discs realized with this pad compound is unmatched up to now. Due to its outstanding wear rate and drive-ability also used at many sprint races.

    Application: All endurance racing cars from group N (Speed-Vision, Grand Am Cup) up to GT and Sport-Cars.

    A multiple winner of Daytona 24h, Le Mans 24h, Sebring 12h, Spa 24h, Nuerburgring 24h often with no pad and usually with no disc change.
     
  22. rexrcr

    rexrcr Formula 3

    Nov 27, 2002
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    O.K., my misunderstanding.
    Maybe, maybe not. I've not had them chew rotors.
    Yes, it's desireable to have the higher temperature rating, but run the orange, perhaps you're right, the compound is different. Seeing your other post, looks like they've changed it.

    I've run the RS14, RS19, R4-2, R4-4 and agree with your post except the R4-4 orange, but they must have changed it. Looks like you've made a good choice with John's advice.

    Get temperature paint. Green, 850 degF, Orange, 1000 degF, Red, 1150 degF. Log the data. Buy some cheep "acid brushes" at NAPA for the paint. Clean the rotor's edge with Scotchbrite, paint narrow bars in that order, green, orange, red, cooler to hotter in the direction of rotor rotation. Do it like mounting directional tires. This helps when you go to read the temperature as the paint turns white, and you won't know what the temperature is unless you've painted the same each time: front to back in the direction of rotation.

    BTW, how do you type in the superscript degree symbol?


    Rob
     
  23. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    Don't know just pasted it. Anyone have a good source for temp paint? Thanks for the advice Rob S. as always.
     
  24. Aircon

    Aircon Seven Time F1 World Champ

    Jun 23, 2003
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    I ran the blues on my 355CH and, although great on the track, for road use they deeply grooved my front disks and ended up glazing them as well. I don't know if they're a different compound now though, as that was a couple of years ago. My fronts only get up to 480 Deg C so I might try the blue or the grey when my last in the country DS11s wear out.

    Peter
     
  25. rexrcr

    rexrcr Formula 3

    Nov 27, 2002
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    Your favorite race supply place should have it, usually about $40. I used to buy from Hyperco, as they had the best price, but I doubt it's still in their catalog.

    Try Pegasus. They have a huge inventory.

    Performance Friction markets a paint that changes to different colors depending on temperature, which I've also used. Works well.
     

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