Instructions on how to fix slow windows on a 308 ?

There are two issues that cause slow windows. Firstly a lack of voltage to the motor which can be fixed with some minor re-wiring and installation and introduction of some relays, and secondly old, solidified grease in the mechanisms.

It is generally considered to be unwise to fix the voltage issue without first R&Ring the mechanisms & repacking with fresh grease - to do so risks putting ennecessary strain on the motors & could cause them to burn out. Getting the window mechanisms out is a long and fiddly job but we (308/328/Mondi owners) are all going to have to tackle it or get it done at some point.

Compression of 150-170 would be a bit on the low side I would say if the test was done properly (i.e. warm engine, all plugs out and a good strong battery.

That said comp test results vary from one tester to another (depending on method and gauge used). So I wouldn't worry too much about it. The most important thing us that they are all within 10% of each other.

 

Then learn how to use the search function to find your answer !

I suspect there may also be advice on Birdman's site amongst others

 

I have the complete instuctions,if you like give a email address and I will send them to you

 

If greyboxer is new to F-chat, and expressing how glad he is to be here, then what's the point of being rude?

The search function on this site leaves a lot to be desired, anyway.

 

Woops, I meant captglen. It was greyboxer who was rude.

 

Iain: thanks for insights on slow driver's window; I have same problem to deal with on coming '83 GTS.

>greyboxer<: Ignore. Another search-function nerd, with 1,500-plus posts and still not subscribed.

 

The "Search" function can be helpful but it can sometimes be a big pain to narrow down the search for any meaningful information.

The window motors (and also headlight motors on some similarly equipped cars) seem to have their gear-reduction drives packed with a grease that tends to "fossilize" after a few decades. The only real fix is to take the motor out (take pictures as you go so you get the bicycle cables strung back the right way), clean out the grease and replace it with new grease and reassemble.

It is possible that there are also electrical issues (make sure all grounds are clean (shiny metal under the terminal) and tight and that the wires that pass from the door to the jamb don't look like the picture (348 shown). If this is the case, it will NEVER WORK until you do some work here first.

The good news is that it is simple basic 12 volt DC electric motors, wires and switches.

The bad news is that there is no "magic bullet" to fix it.

If you like to tinker with things, this will keep you happy.

It is possible that you can make a huge improvement in the function of your windows without buying any parts (for very little money).
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I went through my window mechanisms last Spring. Be sure that all of the rollers spin freely, I had several that were dirty and stuck, If you find a bad one or feel like changing them, I believe Home Depot has some sliding window or screen rollers that match up (cheap too). Another "Trick" that I discovered was adjusting the cable properly, too tight and the windows will move slowly, too loose and the cable will come off of the rollers. Proper adjustment on mine was to adjust the cable just tight enough that it can't come off of the rollers. Check the tension with the windows max up and max down.
It's a fun project, go for it !

 

2NA,

Thanks for posting more window-mechanism info.

Regarding the search function:

-I've used it dozens of times, and yes, often it's difficult to pinpoint a particular question.

-To me, it's infinitely more irritating when a new guy with an honest question comes on and some know-it-all jumps him for not using the search fuction, than it is for the new guy to ask a question that's been asked a hundred times before.

If I have an answer, I'll give it, or politely direct them to the info.

 

One of the first and simplest things to try, before degreasing the motor or replacing parts, is to throughly clean ( with electrical contact cleaner and enhancer) every electrical contact between the switch and the window motor. In addition to the contacts at the motor and switches, there is a connector located behind the coin tray on the driver's side of the dash. Also , when you have the door panel off, lubricate the window tracks with a silicone lube, as well as the cables and pulleys ( I did these with lithium grease). Do this made a big difference in the window speed of my old '85 308.

 

i performed this duty on my 85 gtb. the compression numbers are well within the tolerances. as a new poster and owner you will find an infinite amount of info here. that's why you should utilize the search function. it really is the reason this site exists. i spend as much time doing searches as i do going through the daily posts. just one repair using the info and expertice available here more than justifies the nominal subscription fee. good luck, perserverance furthers.

 

I have stated this elsewhere, but the ground path in the door is THROUGH the door hinges. 20 plus years of rust and grease and you wonder why the windows are slow? It needs a dedicated ground wire ran though to the car chassis. Poor ground = slow windows.

The window switches come apart easily if your careful, the contacts inside them carbon up and wont pass current very well. Cleaning up the contacts can make a real difference. Poor switch contacts = slow windows.

The pulleys the cables run on have no bearings, just a nylon wheel on a steel axle. A few drops of oil on the axles shafts can really do wonders. Half of mine didnt even turn when the motor ran, the cable just skidded over them. The clutch cable has pulley wheels that have ball bearings in them, and can be used for window cable pulleys. Dragging pulleys = slow windows.

The original fuse boxes are not the best design. Mercedes used them as well as Porsche/Audi/VW and they work just as awful in those cars after 20 some years. Many owners have installed Birdmans fueboxes in these cars, and the first thing most noticed immediately were thier windows sprang to life. Bad fuse box connections = slow windows. They also equal dim lights, slow turn signals, slow wipers, slow fans, etc..

After having three of those motors out of the doors now, I would rather poke myself repeatedly in the eye with a sharp stick than remove them and have to restring that darn cable. While many wonder why Ferrari would use such an odd system, it might be interesting to note that Mercedes used the very same mechanism throughout the 1980's and early 90's. If you realise the whole mechanism only weighs about a pound or so, compared to a big heavy gear drive its pretty ingenius. But I would rather do everything else I could do first, before pulling the motors out. While the grease is pretty waxy stuff, its quite a reduction gear and the grease isn't really slowing it down that significantly. Poor connections, switches, fuse boxes and the poor ground path will be 99% of your problem IMHO and = slow windows.

 

Two wires are used from the window switch to the motor. When going up one wire is ground and the other is battery. Window switch gets ground and battery at the fuse panel. Going down the wire functions (ground-battery) reverse.

But the hinge isn't involved electrically unless a relay assist is added within the door, which is infinitely helpful to reduce wiring IR voltage losses and extend switch life.

 

I had saved a link to a thread that had photos and diagrams and numerous pages of instruction.

I just clicked the link and the thread seems to be gone.

Maybe you can have better luck:
http://70.85.40.84/~ferrari/discus/messages/112/305954.html

I had completrly disaembled mine including the gear box on the motor. General consensus the grease used is defective and hardens with age. I even replaced the cables. Window only got about 20% faster.

I could not have re-installed the cables with the diagrams I found in this forum.

Very dissapointing that I can not find this thread

 

The post to which you refer may be in the archives. Check Verell's
exhaustive post in 2002
http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/256120/114996.html
Unfortunately, any jpegs are now bit dust.

 

Maybe they changed it on the later cars, but both of mine have a ground off two terminals of each of the window switches, going to a bolt on the inside of the door. Mine have two hot wires at the switches on the drivers door coming from two different fuses in the fuse box, a blue with black stripe, and a white with black stripe. They are split to the two drivers door switches, so go to four switch terminals. Two other wires, both yellow, come off the drivers door passenger window switch and go over to the passenger door. In the passenger door, the two oranges go to the switch. In either door the motor wires both go to thier repective switch, and the other two terminals on each of the three switches are grounds. When you press a switch you make four contacts. One is from the fuse to the switch, one from the switch to the motor, one from the motor back to the switch, and one from the switch to ground.

It might be interesting to compare wiring diagrams between the early cars and later cars to see what they changed. But I can assure you that if I disconnect that ground wire, the windows are dead. Both cars are wired the same way and the wiring diagram compares identically with both cars.

 

This is also how mine were originally wired (1981) . . . I added the relays and wired the ground to somehwere on the chassis. Passenger side works like a Chevy all the time . . . driver side will occasionally pop the circuit breaker that's mounted on the motor . . . all gear drives have new grease . .. I realized the occasional extra drag is due to one of the rollers that stops rolling during the up stroke . . . cable ends up being dragged thru a slight flat spot that was worn into the roller over the years . .. look like a trip to H Depot is in order for some new sliding door rollers

Sean

 

Paul, are your window switches in the doors or on the midship console? I may have erroneously assumed all 308s have the later, but certainly door mounted switches can have as you stated earlier, grounding through the hinges. Gosh, that's two mistakes I've made already this _____

 

Depending on the wiring used, it is possible for a relay timing overlap to cause a momentary short. You might note if it occurs when you rapidly change window directions. Obviously you don't want a window fuse to pop.

To prevent both relays from being energized simultaneously, wire each relay to receive power from the normally closed contacts of the other relay. In practicality, this extra step is rarely necessary.

 

Yes, they are in the door armrests. I didnt think about that either, but your correct that with the switches on the console they would just reverse current in the door. Probably wired about the same at the switch itself though?

Looks like the switches moved from the doors to the console with the introduction of the early 2V injected cars.

What I may do is run an uninsulated bonding strap from the door to the chassis so I dont have to stuff an extra wire through the conduit boot. It wont be original, but it will solve the grounding problem efficiently.

 

Does anyone have a .jpg of the schematic to install the relays to provide more voltage at the windows. Actually I should preface that...

My 1978 308 has the windows wired backwards. With the key on I have 12V at both contacts on the motors. When I hit the PW switch it provides a ground to one contact or the other to make the window go up or down. This is apparently the opposite of what most most people expect. I bought the speed boosters product and they didn't work because of my backwards wiring. Will the relay trick still work for me?

Thanks,

Aaron

 

Found it:

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=137128826&postcount=22

Aaron

 

Here are some diagrams I've collected over the years.
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Chris, the thread's still there, the hard-coded IP address has changed:

http://ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/112/305954.html

Unfortunately, looks like the pix got lost in the infamous Fchat hard drive crash.


Here's Mike Tarrant's power window relay fix, sorry but this is the best copy I have. Looks like the preceding post is a redraw of the wiring for 1 window:
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